The Latin Mass and the Franciscans of the Immaculate

Pope Francis has instructed that the Franciscans of the Immaculate may not celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. No more Latin Mass for the FIs – without permission.

stefano manelli left

Fr Stefano Manelli on left

Readers of my blog know that I am an associate member of the Franciscan of the Immaculate’s MIM. I’ve been a fan of the Franciscans of the Immaculate for awhile now.

So what’s going on?

The order’s founder is Father Stefano Manelli. He is a man known for his sanctity. He received his first Holy Communion from Padre Pio in 1938. He is also the author of one of my favorite books on Mary, Devotion to Our Lady. I give out copies of this book.

Over time Father Manelli has gravitated toward the Latin Mass of 1962, the Latin Breviary of 1961, and to Msgr. Brunero Gherardini’s reading of Vatican II.

Here is my subjective, non-authoritative, outsider’s interpretation of the facts:

1. Fr Manelli has been using his moral authority as founder of the order to privilege the Latin Missal of 1962 and the Latin Breviary. The Italian FIs generally followed their founder’s lead.

2. Certain FI voices (especially in America) disagreed with this traditional trajectory. They held that the order had been founded with the Novus Ordo. According to them, it was irresponsible to have religious friars and sisters formed in the Novus Ordo and the vernacular Liturgy of the Hours to then be asked to make the move to the Latin texts.

3. Father Angelo Mary Geiger of the FIs in the United States has expressed his concern that the FIs are sipping from the radical traditionalist cool aid. In case you don’t know what “radical traditionalism” looks like, here’s a snap shot:

a) the denial of the Jewish holocaust
b) the outright denial of Vatican 2 as a valid council
c) rhetorical style of the Rorate Caeli blog
d) the embrace of isolationist sub-culture of Catholicism or “Amish Catholicism”
e) the denial the charismatic gifts and the charistmatic movement
f) sympathy for the Bp Williamson’s style of traditionalism
g) disdain for Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis
h) the belief that Latin Mass Catholics are “A Team” and Novus Ordo Catholics are “B Team”
i) Gnostic ecclesiology – that “traditionalists” form the one true invisible Catholic Church

I really don’t think that most people attending the Latin Mass are all that close to the radical traditionalism expressed in the points above (I attend the Latin Mass). However, I do believe that when Father Angelo threw pasta on the wall, some of it did stick.

Here are a few things to keep in mind before you freak out, despair, and write a blog comment on how Pope Francis is “persecuting” people.

1) We’re dealing with Franciscans. Infighting, replacing the founder (St Francis himself!), and papal interventions are almost essential part of the Franciscan’s perennial charism. The story isn’t over. This could take a few decades.

2) Before you vent, go pray the Rosary and drink a cold beer in your backyard. This is not the end of Summorum Pontificum. Relax.

3) From what I know, the Latin Mass is a chess piece in the FI civil war – for both sides. The pope has taken this piece off the game board. This may be temporary until things are settled. Which leads me to…

4) The FIs could go back to the Latin Mass. In the new rule, they can still ask for permission from competent authorities for pastoral reasons. I have no doubt that they will do this. Let’s see what happens. My bet is that the Holy See is afraid that love for the Latin Mass is being positioned as fidelity to the Founder of the the FIs. Once this association is dissolved, I can see the FIs being free to employ the Latin Mass as before.

5) If you love the Latin Mass, remember that Latin Mass PEOPLE are the greatest enemies of the Latin Mass movement. I love the Latin Mass. However, if I were Pope Francis and read the comments at Rorate Caeli, I’d be tempted to shut it all down. It looks sinful and disgusting from the outside. Keep a lock on your lips. Stay out of traddy online forums/blogs. Pray more. Complain less.

Remember the words of Saint Paul:

“And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world.” (Phil 2:14-15)

Pray for the FIs. I imagine that many are in need of our friendship and support.

I’ve said a lot here. I imagine that the comments will be lively. Please be civil, friendly, and Catholic.

You can leave a comment by clicking here.

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  • Dave

    Last evening I prayed while I mowed the lawn. Then I had a cold beer in the backyard. It worked! Thank you for your analysis and encouragement regarding these events. Let us invite our friends to the EF with a smile!

    • magdalene

      I am upset. I know that in some of the US friaries, the mix of OF and EF worked well and the priests were also available to supply the EF for parishes that requested it. Now will that cease?
      But some–Americans in particular–were resistant and vocal and did not wish to follow the direction of the founder and now they see him deposed. Yes, it has happened to a number of saints and Fr. Manelli may be a future one. And the ones that cause the founders to be ousted, none of them are ever canonized. Nuff said.

      • His parents are Servants of God! I think he is a living saint, FWIW.

      • Anonymous

        Those friars faithful to the founders are being ‘exiled’ and punished.

  • A.P. Hill

    Dr. Marshall, thank you for your sane words. I must confess, I do read Rorate on a regular basis, though primarily so I know how NOT to respond to events. I very much appreciate the response of a level-headed traditionalist.

    • Waverley

      Sane words? In describing traditional Catholics you lead with holocaust denial??? Then accuse us of “Amish Catholicism” and having an “A team” / “B team” (!) view of the Church, backed up with “Gnostic ecclesiology” – absolutely ridiculous and patently absurd. You want to describe the traditional Catholic outlook? It is Catholicism as practised by our grandmothers – and theirs, and theirs, and theirs. The Catholic faith, inviolate and untouched by the modernism of the Vatican II devastation. Your piece reeks of an inferiority complex in your identity as a Catholic; the same complex, I might add, from which that small number so succesful in knee-capping their blessed order (and how’s that for Franciscan obedience?) also appears to suffer. Your aesthetic appreciation for the Mass of Ages is irrelevant to the discussion. The Holy Rosary and a beer? You are really kidding yourself, mate. My first and last visit here.

      • Not “traditionalists” but “radical traditionalists.”

        I’m beginning to think that people just want to read this post as an attack on traditionalists, which it is not.

        • MJK

          “…radical traditionalists…” What a ridiculous, culturally marxists inspired term that signifies nothing…

        • julienorvan

          with all due respect Dr Marshall, to attack traditionalism is one and the same, since the term “radical Traditionalists” is really silly! Any form of Traditionalism today is actually very radical, for most of the Catholic Church is going in the very opposite direction to the Traditional Catholic Church of pre Vatican II days! Can’t you see how you are splitting hairs and by doing so insulting the very pretext you seem to take to yourself, -that of being a Traditional Catholic, – for even having such a forum that you have, and which caused my interest in the first place! You are making me think you are more of a poser than a truly traditional Catholic, in it for the opportunistic reasons of profit and notoriety! I hope not, and I pray for you, but you are really doing damage to the image I had of you until reading this! I dont think you know what you are saying and I hope you come to see the falseness of your statements, the folly of your words and are quick to repair this damage which you have done!!

          • Joan

            Wow, good one! Always follow up extravagant criticism with “and I’ll pray for you.” Some good adjectives in here too. The more rad trad, the more hyperbole. No wonder the Pope thinks were judgmental and rigid.

          • julienorvan

            only trying to point out the ludicrousness of Dr Marshalls silly characterization of Traditionalists! Who cares if they look Amish, its what they believe that counts the most! Who cares if they read blogs, isn’t this one? It is just crazy what he is saying in his little commentary, he is white washing the horrifying actions of the Vatican in denying the Mass to this order, which is not allowable to do, according to past Papal decrees, and justifying something that is not just. He sets himself up as an expert and adviser of Catholics by giving useless advice and foolish viewpoints. He is not a true Traditionalist at all!

          • TBTG

            Unfortunately, there are a group labelled “Catholics of nice” who come out with this type of thing all the time.

          • Mary Martha Pazos

            The Pope has not denied the Mass at all. He has just placed a condition on celebrating the Mass in Latin. Permission is needed.

        • larry

          The viciousness of liberal Catholics and the nasty name calling on traditionalists is stunning. I see it in many posts. And this behavior is Christ like? “Tradionalists” WERE the Catholic Church prior to 1963.

      • Dorothy L

        Chastisement isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I hope we will get to keep the Latin Mass in the city where I live, but if we are chastised, we can always offer it up in reparation for our sins and the sins of others and thus, hopefully, reduce our time in Purgatory and/or help to bring about other spiritual good.

      • Diane Alden

        Amen to that. !!!!!!!

        • Elizabeth

          And another Amen, on all points.

      • Anne

        Wow, proof positive. Waverly sure does have the rhetorical style of Rorate, hey, even the Remnant! And, I might add, “I might add” is superfluous. Is the goal to communicate of cram as many flamboyant expressions as possible in a column?

      • julienorvan

        I totally agree with your sentiments and analysis of this nonsensical commentary of Dr Marshall! He is kidding himself for sure in presenting himself as some sort of intellectual Catholic expert on Tradition, when he sees it as a game of some kind, to be played like chess! This characterization of ” Radical traditionalists” is ridiculous, and missing the point all together, that the Traditional Catholic faith is worth fighting for, and not to be confused with how a person dresses or appears, but how they think about the faith! THe whole reason for being a Traditionalist, radical or not, is to conserved the faith of all time, which includes the mass of all time, and this cannot be kept away from the faithful, by any prelate or pope. Marshall check your motivation please! DO you want to be a popular modernist Catholic who attends the Latin mass or a Traditional Catholic who believes in the same (unchanging) faith as our great grandparents?

      • Nathan Hart

        I would like to say for anyone reading these comments and in particular this comment that true Franciscan and religious obedience is to the church before the religious superior and to ones conscience before the church. For those who appealed to the church for intervention, it very well could have been a mortal sin not to appeal. If we comment on lack of obedience, I believe it would be on any Friars who partook in the smearing campaign that occurred against the prefect, commissioner, and Holy Father. Even someone compelled by conscience to solely celebrate the EF is still fully culpable for slander (ends don’t justify means, people). We are able to judge actions and the action of the two here that is automatically, morally unacceptable is defaming, not appealing.

        As for radical traditionalists, if you say it doesn’t exist then you are filling yourself and probably those around you. I attend the EF every week and chant for high masses. I love the TLM and could easily be labeled as traditionalist, but there are those in our community that are truly “radical traditionalists” or whatever you wish to label the same group of people (dissenters, apostate, schismatics, etc.). People often say, “But they aren’t true traditionalist so it doesn’t count.” Of course they aren’t true traditionalists! That’s why we call them radical (ie. deviating). But it does count when they sit next to us in the pew each Sunday and not only jeopardize their souls, but the souls of everyone who think they accurately represent tradition.

        One woman said to me in all seriousness, “We just need to all move to Texas, live within our own little communities, and just pray for the world.” This was appalling that she didn’t accept the gospel messages of being in, not of, the world or making disciples of all nations. I even clarified with her and she meant exactly what I heard (Amish Catholic). Another said in seeing a group of catholic sisters in passing (an extremely orthodox community at that, small “o” orthodox), “So sad. Those religious of the new religion.” Again I clarified, and she was calling those who adhere to the teachings of the Second Vatican Council as of a new religion (A team vs. B team). Another one also held Manichean leaning beliefs of how terrible sex was, essentially a necessary evil (without having any clue of what means justifying ends or double effect was as she sat there with the child she birthed). And another claimed psychology to be evil (as we discussed my profession).

        And similar examples could go on. This is the reality of the traditionalist movement. Yet people make statements that these realities do not exist. This is called denial. Many people in the community have their heads so far up their own…that they can’t see that their “orthodoxy” is the ignorance which the Second Vatican Council was attempting to solve by way of Catechetics. I have such a difficult time reconciling my love for truth and beauty in the EF witg being constantly surrounded by people who are cynical, critical, and poorly catechized, especially on evangelization and social justice (psychologists are surrounded by cynicism and criticism quite enough).

        Lastly concerning the FIs, if I were the pope I would be testing religious communities for their fidelity after witnessing what I have in TLM communities (thanks be to God I can differentiate the baby from the bath water). If you cannot be obedient to the church, why are you a religious or a Catholic at all? The EF is not the foundation of our faith any more than the Byzantine rite celebration is. Norms are norms and not dogma because they are subject to change, unlike blatant blasphemy I have heard from both “traditionalists” and”modernists.”

        Label all you wish, but radicals are not fairytale creatures. They sit next to you every Sunday between the hours of 10:00AM and11:00AM…
        (PS. I would also like to simply point out that bulk of issues within the FIs is not centered around mass forms but governance problems. The EF is really being use as the posterchild for anti-commissioner propaganda.)

    • TBTG

      Read his later post – he doesn’t like being labelled. He is a Catholic who attends the TLM that’s all.

  • So you decided to embrace the ‘radical traditionalist’ moniker, and gave that little list.

    Well, I’m glad you made it clear Dr. Marshall.

    • julienorvan

      I think I note a sarcastic tone in this comment? I agree that the idea of Radical Traditionalist is ludicrous, as such people will begin to terrorize others and commit suicide bombings, etc!! False and divisive words here. Each of his points can be refuted , with which he describes the so called Radical Traditionalists! Either you follow tradition or you don’t, but Mr Marshall wants to put a boundary around his politically correct form of traditionalism and appoint himself as the ruler of the traditionalism of his creation, with the right to call down those who don’t regard him as highly as he regards himself! Very sad to have to divide and conquer traditionalists this way!!

  • Denis Saint-Maurice

    Nice and balanced explanation. I am not a fan of the traditional extraordinary rite, but I do help the St. Pierre Fraternity with confessions in Québec city. They do a great job in liturgy, but there is always an underground temptation, in certain people, against modernity, rather than modernism. One is a way of being, the other a heresy. It is important not to mix the two. One should not live against Vatican II and the present society. Even if it is far from being perfect, our present society is where we live. We should not turn our back to it, but rather, turn it back to God.

    • ITBWTW

      Padre, sounds like you put the horse before the cart. You advocate following the contemprary value..”our present society is where we live”, without acknowledging those values have devolved away from Catholic Values, most notably with V-II. Are we not “in this world”, not “of this world”? It kind of sounds like the new speak Catholics, both sides of the mouth talk, nothing is made clear, souls are lost. Traditionaist simply believe in the entire Catholic Faith. We did not throw out 2000 years of Faith to accomodate living in the modern world…unlike the majority of O.F. practitioners, a dimminishing number indeed, but who threw out everything the Church taught prior to 1965. The V-II Iron Curtain. So sad, so dangerous for the soul. Really Father, what is the difference between the heresy of Modernism and Modernity, embracing the modern life styles?? I suggest there is no difference. And if that is true, then what? I also suggest the V-II was the turning of the back on God. Trads simply have turned back around to face God again, just like the priests at the Latin Mass.

      • Denis Saint-Maurice

        Thank for your comment. I accept the 2000 years of catholic life totally. There is no question there. But if the world is sometimes ugly, we must come to grips with it, and be part of the solution. I recognize modernism as a heresy, and always will be. We also live in a world of great saints, who have taken the challenge to transform that world, often paying dearly for it. Here I mean John Paul the Great and Mother Theresa, for example. Without giving in to modernism, the world we live in has some good. I think this is what Our Lord means by the good grain and the evil one. As we are waiting for the end of the world, we must not ignore our world, but live with it and try to suffocate evil with our holinessThe Lord asked specifically that we should not be taken from the world. And this is found int the catholic church. It stems in Christ and it will last until the end of the world. We must be there and testify of Christ in our milieu. I dissociate modernism and modernity. The first is evil, the second is indifferent. It depends on what we do with it. But we should not turn our back to the people who live in it, and try their best. We must testify and die as witnesses of Christ, if it is necessary, order “to save them all”.

        • ITBWTW

          Mother Teresa, Yes! Genuine Catholic. JP-II, a little more iffy. I love JP-II, but I see his mistakes. He did a lot to accomodate the evil we are experiencing. He took the Truth of Jesus Christ down a notch with his ecumenical gestures of placing every religion on par with Catholicism. A big mistake at the very least.

          Father, do you believe that the Catholic Church is the sole source of Salvation?? That Truth is the real test of allegiance. Frankly, being a Novus Ordo convert to Traditional (fully authentic) Catholicism, that was a hard thought for me to bite off. Still don’t like it because it means so many family and friends are on the wrong course right now. But to watch JP-II you’d think every Church is the road to salvation. No wonder no-one goes to Catholic Church anymore, just hanging at a coffee shop is a source of salvation to the ecumenical movement (the Church of Nice Guys).

          Now we have the Pope washing the feet of muslims. I know its cute, but symbolically very dangerous. Christ did not wash the feet of unbelievers, he washed the feet of his priests (believers) to show them how to be serving priests for his people. Remember, thousands of the early martyrs were murdered simply because they wouldn’t show fealty to Rome by the simple act of joining incense with the incense of other religions. They proclaimed the one True Faith of God. Where are those gonads in the Postconciliar Church?

          • Mary Martha Pazos

            Other than Christ, the only human without sin is the Virgin Mary. Being perfect is not a prerequisite for sainthood. Nor did Pope Saint John Paul II place all religions on a par with Catholicism. He did promote unity among Christians, but that is Biblical, not anti-Catholic. Going back to Christ’s time, a “traditional” Jew would NEVER have reached out to the Gentiles, and yet that is what Christ wanted, even selecting Paul to lead that mission.
            Sometimes what we consider the right way is based on our personal understanding or experiences. It can be extremely difficult to open up to other perspectives. However, without compromising the truth of our God-given gift of faith, or our values, it is perhaps possible to be a little more accepting of the Second Vatican Council and its aftermath.

      • julienorvan

        excellently spoken! Wonderful analogy of the turning the backs on God after Vat. ll and then turning back TO God with the Latin mass! So true!

  • Sandra Morris

    Thanks for the explanation it is appreciated

  • defiant12314

    But Dr Marshall its the prescedent I don’t like, some llberal doesn’t like what his superior is doing and therefore whines to the Pope, The Pope then replaces the Superior and liberals crow.

    As for little list I confess that I am no fan of JP2, he refused to listen to those who warned of the homosexual sub-culture in the clergy , kissed the ignoble koran and presided over the Assisi debacles.

    Also I do believe that whilst not explicitly different teams there is a world of difference between the Catholocism that you see on display at the average EF parish and that which you seen on display at the average liberal N.O Parish and that stats on vocations, baptisms per capita bear that out. I also explicitly dislike the attitude N.O Catholics such as the Catholic Answers staff who whilst being orthodox treat the trad community and our values e.g. no NFP, insistence on “No Salvation Outside the Church” and our belief that things were better before Vatican II came along ( I personally gravitate towards Msgr. Gherardini’s take).

    • charles gauvin

      I can tell you that Father Angelo Mary Geiger is a personal friend of mine, and he is not a “liberal” whining to the Pope. He is a holy man, who suffered and prayed about this situation, and is still suffering, I can assure you. Do you think that he enjoyed the position that he was in? Or enjoys seeing his founder in the position he now finds himself in? Or the order?
      The Pope is the man who is gifted by God with the charism to guide the Church as he sees fit, and that’s what he is doing. Father Angelo did what he felt he had to do, and the Pope is doing what he feels he has to do. FYI, Father Angelo has said many a TLM, long before he was required to do it, and he has a great love for it. Please be more charitable.

      • ES

        And the founder of the order did what he felt he had to do, what he had every right by Church law to do. Pity he got the short end of the stick and is ignominiously removed from his post.
        Based on what we’ve seen of the Curia these days, I think Fr. Angelo will soon be wishing he had his superior back.

        • charles gauvin

          please see above

      • defiant12314

        Mr Gauvin I did not mention anyone by name, If read my point carefully you notice I am making a point about the precedent this sets.

        Now Father Geiger may have ‘prayed’ over what he felt he had to do, but if he had a problem being a religious in a EF Order he should have asked to be released from his vows and secularized as did many Legionaries of Christ when the revelations about their founder were publicized, if he was concerned about certain tendencies towards ‘radical traditionalism’ he could have quietly brought it to the attention of the Superior to sort out.

        Instead he went crowing to the Curia and as a result his Superior / Founder has been unceremoniously thrown out of his post, removing a founder over so minor a concern is overkill to the xth degree

        May God have mercy on his soul because I’m sure that St Francis will disown him

        • charles gauvin

          please see my response above

        • quiverfull

          just an fyi… the FFI’s were NOT founded as an EF order! I’m so sick of hearing this. The founder of this order has tried to change the charism of the order… something you cannot canonically do! Sheesh!! This is NOT about the Latin Mass!! This is NOT about a handful of whiny friars stamping their feet to get their own way! Does anyone honestly think that the Holy Father would make a decision lightly based on a few whiny friars (friars not MONKS)? There has been a visitation to this order…. Stick to facts that you KNOW not opinions of what you think you know!

          • defiant12314

            Dear Quiverfull

            It is true that the FI’s were not founded as an EF order in the same way that say the FSSP and Institute of Christ the King were founded as Institutes of Apostolic life in order to say the EF exclusively.

            However the Founder / former superior as has been stated was moving towards a more critical interpretation of Vatican Two and the Liturgy / Brevery of 1962 something which he as the superior was perfectly entitled to do. He was not trying to change the Charism of the order, merely to change the form under which they offered Mass.

            As for the Holy Father I find his actions worrying as he seems to be setting a precedent that if one disagrees with one’s superiors on matters on which they are the competent authority e.g. alter girls, communion rails etc then all one has to do in order to get the change one wants (instead of being obedient) is to whine to the Pope or the Curia .

        • Nathan Hart

          For any current readers of this comment, Fra. Angelo did in fact go to superiors many times (and it was The Superiors since he himself was a superior). In addition, those who joined a community have the right to remain in that same community. When people deviate from the precedent and start to change the community, they are the ones who ought to leave even when they are the majority. For what it’s worth, I think the precedent of presumption which you have set is rather low.

          On another note, religious are not meant to be automatically solely EF by their own choice which is why it requires approbation from the Vatican. I believe the sole celebration of the EF has yet to be granted to an active religious community (ie. Not an institute founded for the EF nor monastic community). The mission of the FIs was not, is not, and will not be the celebration of the EF. We should stop acting as though it were.

          If some mentality which has come in the wake of implementing the EF in the FIs conflicts with the original charism of the congregation, this mentality ought to be amended (which may mean putting limitations on celebrating the EF).

      • charles gauvin

        Maybe this will clarify, from CNA:

        But the spokesman for the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, Father Alfonso Bruno, told CNA July 29 that “more than 80 percent of the friars appreciate the intervention of the Church.”

        In his estimation, the “problem is not the Holy Mass usus antiquior,” which he described as “only the tip of the iceberg.”

        Fr. Bruno pointed to a “small group in power” within the religious congregation that is being influenced by Mother Francesca Perillo, who is “very close” with Lefebvrist groups. He is worried that Mother Perillo, who is in charge of those sisters who live in hermitages, and her followers could fall into “heresy and disobedience.”

        You didn’t have to mention anyone by name, you inferred it, and in this case, I am telling you that that is not what happened. And please, don’t compare this to the LofC, because it’s not even close.
        How do you know that he did not “quietly (bring) it to the attention of the Superior to sort out?” You don’t. But I know that he didn’t “crow to the Curia.”
        As for “removing a founder over so minor a concern,” I guess that’s how you feel about heresy and disobedience..

        @ ES:
        Apparently, as is evidenced by the result, he didn’t do something right, and as to whether he had the right to do it, I don’t know. I’m not a canon lawyer, are you?

        • Janusius Sancto

          That is a little laughable if you mean to tell us that a little nun stuck away somewhere lead to the Founder and Superior of the FFI being removed because someone was concerned with who might be influencing this one little nun. In addition, the one thing the so called ‘Lefebvrist’ have never been accused of is heresy. Heresy is rampant these days in the Church but it is not coming from the ‘Lefebvrist’. As for those who are truly spreading heresy, no seems to really care and no one does anything to silence them.

          • Jim

            I once heard a FI priest who shall go unnamed shout down quite heavily the TLM. Just saying…. it’s been going for a while now.

          • ES

            Yes, can we say paranoid? One nun in an order has some contact with the SSPX, and everyone flips out and the founder of the order must be removed? If (and that is a HUGE if), she was heading into dangerous territory, the rational reaction would be to address this particular nun’s situation. Instead, what happens? The whole order is banned from utilizing Summorum Pontificum, the founder is removed in disgrace, and a Curial official is put in charge? That is patently absurd.

          • Nathan Hart

            St. Catherine and St. Therese were just two little nuns and now doctors of the church. Rarly does history remember the little nuns who were equally effective on a negative scale.

        • ES

          Summorum Pontificum gives the superior of the order the right to decide what form his order will primarily use. One does not have to be a canon lawyer to see that the superior was well within his rights to move the order to a preferential (not exclusive!) use of the EF.
          And, if some opposition to one’s superior is evidence that superior has done something wrong, then we have to write off virtually every single reforming saint, such as St. Teresa, St. John of the Cross, etc, and reforming popes too, such as St. Gregory VII. That horse simply will not race.

          • charles g

            It’s my guess that it was not so much the use of the TLM, as the reasons behind that use that were the problem, and it had more to do with the hermeneutic of rupture stance as regards VII.
            Opposition to one’s superior is not evidence that superior has done something wrong, but when the Holy Father steps in and reverses the act of that superior, then we have to believe that the Holy Father, whose charism it is (given to him by God) to deal with these issues as he sees fit, will act accordingly. And he has. He has taken the TLM off the table, because it was a divisive issue in that order. Father Geiger was not just some unhappy priest, he was the General Delegate for the U.S., someone who was in a position to know about such things, and I’m sure very knowledgeable of canon law and Summorum Pontificum. He is a holy man of great intellect. I can say this because I know him personally. And he also has love and respect for the TLM, and I have attended mass when he said it. (before it was required in his order)

          • steve5656546346

            So, your are saying that every word that the Pope says is God-Breathed: with him not having any free will, but just being an oracle? No, you couldn’t be saying that.

            Well, perhaps you are saying that the history of the Church no Pope ever made an error concerning disciplinary decisions? If so, that is wildly counter-factual!

            Popes have free will: with only ONE exception–although the Church has never defined how that exception might operate. The Holy Spirit will not allow–one way or another–the Pope to bind the faithful to an infallibly pronounced dogma that is unambiguously false. (Of course, he is also infallible when he merely repeats what has always and everywhere been taught.)

          • Nathan Hart

            You missed the fact that Teresa and John themselves both openly opposed superiors…and went “crowing” to the church for aid (I smell irony).
            PS. Read Summorum Pontificum a little more closely. It most definitely does not give a superior the right to implement his preference on the community, which would be extremely non-fraternal and un-Franciscan of such a superior.

      • Kevin Tierney

        As one who knows Fr. Geiger and has worked with him on a pretty regular basis for the past several years during the debates involving Christopher West, no, he isn’t a liberal. Is he a bit crotchety and polemical when he gets his blood boiling? Even he will admit that. but he isn’t some nasty foe.

    • Churchill4President

      Well said! I feel exactly the way you do. Millions of other Catholics feel the same way as well. The establishment Novos Ordo progressives who are in control are actively suppressing our opinions. You are spot on about the attitude of the Catholic Answers organization as well.

      Interesting that Pope Francis has reached out to Jews, Muslims, homosexuals and others on the left of the spectrum. When will he reach out to Traditionalist Catholics?

      • Martha Dancy

        We approved groups that use the old rite are not like those items listed that describe traditionalists. We are not radical and most of us do not agree with Williamson on his views. We just feel more at home with the old rite and we like to avoid the abuses used in the post conciliar rite. I really resent being compared to the sede vacantist groups that someone posted on here looping all trads in that category. As I have said before, when people don’t like the old rite, many times some of these people favor heresies like women priests, gay marriage, abortion and other atrocities. As for divisiveness, before the new rite was promulgated, we had unity in the church and dissenters left the church in peace. It is only after the council that we have had all these problems in my lifetime. I am 75 so I remember how much I loved the church before 1969, and then heretic priests with radical leftist ideas flooded in. I cannot accept these leftist ideas nor can i mix with them. I cannot tolerate this in the church itself. I go to the old rite because the people that go there are in my way of thinking and I feel more at home with them. I feel like I am supporting evil if I mix in with the heretics that think their ideas will be inherited later.

        • Maurizio

          I totally agree with you.
          Moreover, I don’t think all those Catholics who attended Mass BEFORE the Novus Ordo were like the way traditionalists are described in the post 🙁

        • Mary

          Martha Dancy I find it terribly amusing that you start off resenting comparison the extremes in the Latin Mass community…and then go on to make the same error toward the novus ordo community – comparing them to their more vocal extreme members.
          A lot of people I know do not like the old rite and refuse my invitation to join me at a TLM BECAUSE of their experiences of “Amish Catholicism”. They don’t favor the new heresies at all. They simply dislike being judged for sending their kids to Catholic school (a good private one, btw); reading the works of John Paul II; having fertility problems (one friend has only two children due to infertility – she refuses to go now to the TLM after hearing many insensitive comments); the list goes on.
          It’s not the case that every TLM community is this way…and it’s not the case that every member of a TLM community is this way. BUT, Dr. Marshall is certainly right when he says that “Latin Mass PEOPLE are the greatest enemies of the Latin Mass movement”. Let’s stop condemning those who favor the novus ordo as people who many times favor heresies. Instead, let’s find a way to make their experience of the TLM an experience filled with love rather than condemnation.

          • steve5656546346

            I agree that Novus Ordo attendees should not be mischaracterized and slandered.

            However, in comboxes I periodically read comments like yours: and after attending the TLM for 10 years, I have not the foggiest notion of what you might be talking about. That is not my experience AT ALL.

            But besides that, I don’t understand all the hostility towards the Amish: are they the great danger that this nation faces?

          • Joan

            Yeah, let’s watch the Amish-bashing. After all, wasn’t Chesterton’s Distributism proposal rather close to a sort of “Amish Catholicism”?

          • Nathan Hart

            The point is that the Amish do not represent the ideal Christian family. Separating yourself from the world is one thing, but separating the foundation of society which is the family from the world only adds fuel to the flames of modern society. Let’s fix society by not actually doing anything to influence it? This is the call of a very select few which we call monks and nuns who solely pray for the world. This is not the vocation of the family.

          • MJK

            “…love rather than condemnation…They simply dislike being judged for sending their kids to Catholic
            school (a good private one, btw); reading the works of John Paul II;
            having fertility problems (one friend has only two children due to
            infertility – she refuses to go now to the TLM after hearing many
            insensitive comments)…”

            Ah, how superficial and extremely sentimental. Just look at your use of language: “Don’t like to be judged…” “insensitive comments” so this nonsensical term rad trad stuff is really about making people feel good. I think the real issue is how the church today has fallen victim into the secular religion of today of non-judgmentalism. What does infertility have to do with the TLM community…

        • Nathan Hart

          This is fuel to the flame. I could say back to you that when people don’t like the new rite, many times some of these people favor heresies such as such as sedevacantism…
          As for unity pre-Vatican II, that is just about as ambiguous as thriving women religious communities. Teresa of Avila’s community was thriving too before she left it to follow the actual charism of Carmelites in her reform. The church pre-Vatican II found herself being all too often unified in complacency.
          PS. Many “heretical priests” were ironically formed before the council in this “unified” non-“leftist” church you speak of.

  • François Robert Fournier

    Je m’exprime mal en anglais ma langue étant le français. Mais je sais que le Dr. Marshall comprend cette langue. Ministre ordonné dans l’Église Catholique, je vis à 7 km(5 milles) d’une maison de La Fraternité St-Pie X. Tout ce que vous avez écrit concernant la Traditionalistes est exact. J’y suis allé à plusieurs reprise et en résumé: 1-Il nie le Concile Vatican deux dans son ensemble. 2-Les messes dites (Novus Ordo) sont invalides. 3- L’ordination des diacres permanents mariés sont invalide 4- Les Juifs sont coupables de la mort de Jésus5-L’Holocoste en Allemagne n’a jamais eu lieu, (invention des franc massons 6-La Liturgie des Heures priées par les prêtres et les diacres est invalide, et encore j’en passe. Je crois que le Pape François craint une dérive vers l’extrême droite en laissant des ordres religieux se refermer sur le latin. Pour mon diocèse, aucune messe en latin n’est dite. Seulement sept demandes faites, et ces gens ne comprenaient un seul mot de latin. En France les traditionalistes sont froid et distants avec tous les catholiques. Ils détiennent seuls la vérité.

    • Blessed

      Je n’parle pas bien français. Mais, je suis allé au la messe traditionnelle a Sts. Eugene et Cecile en Paris en Juin, et les traditionalistes n’étaient pas froid ou distants. C’est possible votre diocèse est différant. (Je pourrais comprendre la masse parce qu’il était en latin!) J’assiste à la messe traditionnelle en les États-Unis, et je crois que le Novus Ordo est valide. Nous devons être prudents avec les généralisations. La paix soit avec vous!

  • Janusius Sancto

    I find it distasteful that you would specifically target Rorate Caeli in your post. This is not the first time you have done so and it is truly counterproductive. Perhaps you have disagreed with their position, but that is really your own opinion. What makes you so certain that your own opinion and way of handling things trumps that of Rorate Caeli? Just because they view and handle things differently than you would odes not make them wrong. In addition, Rorate is not known for posting superficial opinion pieces. They normally post news items that are substantiated by facts. Facts are facts, even when we do not like them.

    I can’t help but wonder, would you have been against St. Athanasius and those who followed his lead? Do you think you would have recognized the reasons and need for him to take the stance he did? Or do you think you would have counseled for a middle ground?

    Luke warm water does eventually come to a boil, the question is will it be too late by the time you realize that it is boiling?

    • Patrick

      There’s a difference between targeting the opinions of the blog and targeting the “rhetorical style” (as TM puts it) used there. Yes many opinions are substantiated by facts, and TM hasn’t said otherwise. In fact he hasn’t stated that he disagrees with the positions stated there, he’s just commented that the rhetoric employed (which in my experience is frequently inflammatory and generally unhelpful in most situations) is of a more ‘radical’ nature than not.

      Reread his post and then see if you still think you need to criticize him so harshly. A good strategy for eliminating such rhetoric is to stop before commenting and think for 30 seconds if what you are going to say is actually going to help the discussion or not.

    • Mark Adams

      I can’t help but see some humor and irony in a defense of Rorate Caeli that makes such liberal (ahem) use of the rhetoric of realtivism:

      “but that is really your own opinion”

      “What makes you so certain that your own opinion and way of handling things trumps that of Rorate Caeli?”

      “Just because they view and handle things differently than you would does not make them wrong”

      • Janusius Sancto

        Actually, the issue at hand is that TM objects to the ‘opinions’ others have posted on Rorate and believes that his ‘opinions’ are correct and way of handling things is the correct way and the others are not. The problem is that we are just talking about ‘opinions’ here. So, in reality all the ‘opinions’ are equal unless someone can provide some concrete reason why they are not. Now in the case of Rorate, their inital postings are normally fact related so that does provide some of the concrete information that is necessary. And for the record, Rorate normally always takes heat for posting the facts – at first people try to dismiss it as rumor and then later they just criticize them for posting it.

        TM has targeted Rorate more than once in the past. Specifically, he targeted them for posting the Holy Father’s less than stellar reputation with the TLM in his diocese before he was elected tot he papacy. Rorate posted the facts and backed it up repeatedly with documentation and sources. Yet, TM still targeted them in a post of his own.

        TM seems like a good father and husband and he has a number of very good posts but does a disservice to himself and traditionalist by going after Rorate and by trying to take some sort of middle ground between being a traditionalist and linking arms with the Catholic Answers/EWTN crowd. It just doesn’t work and it isn’t helpful.

        • MP

          “Rorate posted the facts and backed it up repeatedly with documentation and sources”

          This is an absurd claim. The folks at Rorate typically repeat the unverified claims of other sources, and they routinely suppress any factual insights that run counter to their narrative. They sow dissension and division. Ignatius of Antioch warned us to avoid those who only attempt to sow dissension. “Noxious weeds”, he called them.

          • Janusius Sancto

            Back your words up. What unverified claims have they posted. They always post the documentation/sources for their postings. On a few occasions, they pulled the articles if they weren’t satisfied with the documentation.

            Many times over, I have seen people tell them a post was just rumor, gossip, etc. just to have it verified web-wide shortly afterwards. That was even true with the story on the FFI. They were among the first to post it and all the usual suspects came out to say it wasn’t true, they didn’t believe it, it was gossip, etc. However, it was true.

            And my words which you quoted above specifically referred to Rorate’s post on the TLM (or lack there of) in the Pope’s diocese when he was a cardinal. Again, lots of people were quick to say it wasn’t true and to tried to post contradictory information. Turns out their contradictory info is what was false. TM was one of those people on that bandwagon, if I recall correctly. I don’t know if he ever recanted. I do know of at least one site that did.

            I personally did my own research and was able to very the info posted by Rorate at that time and much more. Again, they posted facts!

          • MP

            And the “Carnival is over” claim that was proven false? And the speculation that Guido Marini was going to be fired post-haste? And the bile that went along with RC’s criticism of Pope Francis within *one hour* of the papal election? No excuse for that. Filthy.

          • SrAM

            A for e) the denial of charismatic gifts and the charismatic movement has nothing to do with being a “traditionalist”, but being a true Catholic. The charismatic movement is rooted in pentecostalism, which is rooted in protestantism that came out of Africa. The listing he gave is a little off kilter, I think. I am not a radical traditionalist, but of late I am seeing more and more divisions and subdivisions among Trads (as well as other “sections” going on in the Church). Along with this I am also seeing more anger and bitterness. That is where the danger comes in, when we allow this bitterness to take control of our hearts and minds, thus blinding us to see the true light. We are in a time of the greatest confusion of our Faith than ever before. Our Faith is certainly challenged from all sides and in every way, from bishops to laity. We are at war with him that seeks to destroy the Church from within and causes darkness and confusion. However, we as Catholics are fortunate to have the protection of the Church, even in this time of great darkness. Our Faith must be strong which receives its strength from prayer and the sacraments. Let us pray for the increase of Faith and to remain strong, embracing the cross all the way to the bloody crucifixion on Calvary.

          • Nathan Hart

            He did not say Charismatic Movement. Charismatic gifts are Catholic. If you don’t believe the gifts of healing, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, etc. is possible, what else from the New Testament do you deny?

          • Janusius Sancto

            Oh, I almost forgot, re-read TM’s comments under 3) a-i. If that is not divisive and meant to cause dissension, I don’t know what is. Same goes for his comments on Rorate.

            Personally, I think his comments on Rorate are personal. The first time I read comments from TM against Rorate was after Pope Francis was elected and Rorate posted the information about the situation with the TLM in his diocese. I did not agree with TM’s comments but I did not see them as personal at that time. However, to continually make comment about Rorate indicates he has a personal issue with them and he would be better off to drop it and leave them out of his postings and comments.

            TM has a lot of good qualities and he has a lot to offer, but he still has a lot to learn. He is a convert to Catholicism and he is still fairly new to Tradition. I think there is still much he does not know or understand – both about the history of the Church and Tradition.

            I think TM is trying to tow a line between tradition and Catholic Answers/EWTN and it won’t work. He will have to chose one direction or the other. They simply don’t mix – their audiences don’t even mix. CA and EWTN can provide fame and money, but they won’t tolerate a real traditionalist. Gerry Matatics, Thomas Drolesky and Robert Sungenis all tried that route and when they became traditionalist they were tossed out and abandoned. In the end, that drove them even farther over, which I don’t recommend. I can think of one other from their group who has been/is coming around to tradition but he basically keeps it quiet.

          • Kevin Tierney

            Can we state we disagree with someone without viewing them inferior or questioning whether or not they are as far along the path of enlightment as we think they should be?
            Just as an FYI, Sungenis wasn’t tossed out for being a trad. He was tossed out for being a rabid anti-semite and conspiracy mongerer. Look at him nowadays, there isn’t a conspiracy theory he won’t imbibe, from jews running everything, to birtherism, trutherism, etc. That was pretty much always Bob.
            Drolesky and Matatics are sede’s. Maybe, just maybe, it was the hangups they always had which got them in trouble? The problem is with those two, they basically always were sedes, they were just afraid to man up to their ideas. They took the intellectually honest but spiritually suicidial path of sedevacantism.
            I don’t think it is a matter of towing the line between “tradition” and “EWTN/CA.” I think its more trying to remain faithful to the traditions of our fathers, without having a lot of hangups that are antithetical to that tradition. Who cares what EWTN/CA thinks?

          • MP

            “[Sungenis] was tossed out for being a rabid anti-semite and conspiracy mongerer.”

            He also blamed the Jews for the criticism that he received from fellow Catholics.

          • MP

            No – Matatics, Drolesky, and Sungenis made their own decisions by their own will. That they were roundly criticized for their bizarre notions is not the same as being “tossed out”. Sungenis takes responsibility for his strange notions of geocentrism himself. Res ipsa loquitur

          • Harold Norwood

            An excellenct article Dr Taylor. I agree with most or if not all of what you say. As for the Rorate Caeli blogg. They even have a severe policy of censorship and exclude any comments, however reasoned they may be that they disagree with. I think it is about to ‘close up shop’ they do not accept any more comments but still publish ridiculous criticisms of the Holy Father and all things seen as Vatican II ! This blogg in reality is more or less surportative of the schismatic sspx sect. They even have a frequent contributor who is a professed sede vacantist ”priest’ ex Lefebvre, writing for them ! (A sede vacantist is a person who maintains that the Chair of Peter is vacant, in other words we have no Pope!) Indeed, unfortunately, Pope Francis was correct in restricting the celebration of the extraordainry rite and I hope that it will be restricted further. It is used as an agenda for those who do not accept Vatican II , and more times than not deny the validily of the new Rite of Mass of Pope Paul VI and the Sacraments ! They see themselves as the ‘A’ Team, or the True Catholic elite while all the others ‘conciliar catholics’ whatever that means aren’t really catholic at all but belong to the ‘new church’! Further restrictions ought to be place on their ‘flag ship’ the extraordinary form for they use it to reject a substantial part of the Magisterium of the Church, especially the Second Vatican Council and all the Church Reforms !

          • Martha Dancy

            There isn’t anything more noxious than the priests who are sympathizers of gay marriage, changing the morals of the church ad nauseam. There was a priest who visited a renogade gay group in Denver and he said that the church had to change its morals. It is in the Denver Post either on Monday or Tuesday of this week. It was awful but of course, this man remains a functioning priest in good standing. He travels around pushing for terrible things that scandalize the faithful and no one does anything about it. I believe that church authorities should excommunicate these guys for teaching heresy and remove their faculties. If there were priests pushing for the old rite, they would have not been allowed to continue without the church authorities telling him to shut up. If the novus ordo parishes would stop harboring heretics and radical gays and feminists’ ideas, I would feel less negative about the new rite and parishes. I just can’t stand to mix with them in the church. Oil and water don’t mix.

        • Loyolalaw98

          “Now in the case of Rorate, their inital postings are normally fact related”
          Reprinting what others have stated and then claiming innocence is not the same as having “fact related” postings.
          Prima facie example – the headline at Rorate the day of Pope Francis’ election read:
          “The HORROR! – A Buenos Aires journalist desribes Bergoglio.”

    • MP

      “Rorate is not known for posting superficial opinion piece”

      Untrue. Their gossip has led many astray.

      • Janusius Sancto

        Please back up your words.

        • Kevin Tierney

          Even their writers have admitted their comment boxes get particularly nasty at times. To those who aren’t of the initiated, it looks like a disgusting bile factory.
          If they did away with the comboxes entirely, their site would shoot up in value and worth. I know I’m not the only one who for the most part avoids the comboxes entirely when visiting there.

          • Janusius Sancto

            TM’s comments and MP’s comments are not geared at the combox but Rorate. And to be honest, the same type of comments can be found here, on Fr. Z’s blog, and elsewhere – only they target traditionalist (including the SSPX).

          • Kevin Tierney

            “However, if I were Pope Francis and read the COMMENTS at Rorate Caeli, I’d be tempted to shut it all down.”
            Maybe he means the article itself and it was a poor choice of words. But it seems several of us all read it the same way. The comments there are pretty rancid.
            No doubt you get a lot of bile on comboxers. That’s the nature of the internet. Yet some places you get a higher concentration than others.

          • Janusius Sancto

            He also said this: “In case you don’t know what “radical traditionalism” looks like, here’s a snap shot: … rhetorical style of the Rorate Caeli blog” The combox is not “Rorate” but readers. For the most part, most people do very well posting but few go over board. Now if you are someone who believes the Pope is always right and he can do whatever he wants, then you may think that a lot of those making comments go over board. To even make the comment that “if I were Pope Francis and read the COMMENTS at Rorate Caeli, I’d be tempted to shut it all down” shows some ignorance of what the Pope can and can’t do, if the comment was meant seriously and not made in jest. The Mass is not the Pope’s toy to do with as he wishes or to do away with as he wishes just because he doesn’t like the anonymous comments he reads online.

          • Janusius Sancto

            Let me add, in TM’s case, I think he should be much more cautious about throwing around terms like ‘radical traditionalism’ and providing his definitions of such words, as he does have a public position as the Dean of a Catholic college. As a blogger, he may do as he wishes but he is more than a blogger and it was not prudent of him to say such things.

            And again, I do believe he has a personal issue with Rorate (meaning the individuals who run that website).

          • Kevin Tierney

            I think with all due respect you are overreacting. I don’t think the good Doctor was seriously stating that the Pope should just abolish the EF because of what some disillusioned commentors on a blog said. Even if he could do that in theory, it would probably be a really dumb idea.
            Yet lets say Pope Francis wants to know what traditionalists think, and goes into the comboxes at RC. Think he will come away with something positive when you hear about how he hates these individuals he doesn’t even know, is leading a great persecution of the faithful, and destroying the Church over this one act? Or Benedict wondered what trads thought of his abdication, and saw a photo of him turning his back on everyone? Anyone think that would be a positive witness for traditionalism?
            We all post things that are counter-productive from time to time. Yet the principle still applies, and we should do our best to strive to it. Write as if an outsider will come upon your work and judge all you hold dear based on what you say.

          • Gordis85

            I fully agree with your opinion. I do not visit that site at all anymore since I found what they say about JPII and Pope Francis disrespectful, lacking in charity and very self-righteous and negative.

            I was left wondering if their love for the TLM was bearing any fruit in building up the Church? But all one has to do is read what many post in the com boxes and well…I came away with nothing.

          • Harold Norwood

            An excellenct article Dr Taylor. I agree with most or if not all of what you say. As for the Rorate Caeli blogg which has a severe censorship from publishing comments from anyone they disagree with.. I think it is about to ‘close up shop’ they do not accept any more comments but still publish ridiculous criticisms of the Holy Father and all things seen as Vatican II and has even a well known sede vacantist (one who things the Chair of Pater is vacante, or in other words, have no Pope) who is a frequent contributor ! ! This blogg in reality is more or less surportative of the schismatic sspx sect. Indeed, unfortunately, Pope Francis was correct in restricting the celebration of the extraordinary rite and I hope that it will be restricted further. It is used as an agenda for those who do not accept Vatican II , and more times than not deny the validily of the new Rite of Mass of Pope Paul VI and the Sacraments ! They see themselves as the ‘A’ Team, or the True Catholic elite while all the others ‘conciliar catholics’ whatever that means but think thet aren’t really catholic at all but belong to the ‘new ‘conciliar’ church’! How absurd ! This ‘extraordinary form’ is but a ‘flag ship’ for dissidentes rejecting a substancial part of the Magisterium of the Church, especially the Second Vatican Council. As the late Vem, Archbishop Fulton Sheen said “You can’t be a Ctholic if You pick and choose.”

    • Joannie

      Facts are not always facts, as any educated person should know, especially one living in the so-called internet era. Rorate is OK to check for an overview of important happenings that almost no one else will post. No question they have a style and a slant very hard in a very narrow direction, not just “traditional”, their brand of it. Rorate has also published some shockingly vile statements against Jews. That is a fact, look it up.

  • Thank you for this post. Very helpful!

  • ES

    I appreciate your reminder to be calm. That is good advice! However, I feel I must point out that I am familiar with some of Fr. Angelo’s complaints with the traditional movement, and I have found them to be scurrilous and sometimes slanderous. Is there any evidence at all that the FIs were even sympathetic to any of these positions? I certainly haven’t seen any. What I have seen is 1. Fr. Angelo using his blog to stir up factionalism, implicitly against his superiors. You are critical of the tone rorate-caeli uses. So am I. However, how much worse is it when a friar uses the internet to stir people up against his own superiors? Be wary of this double standard. 2. Unfair and completely unfounded claims of a huge anti-Semitic problem amongst people who attend the EF. The reasoning for these claims was absolutely absurd. For this, the blog leaders who made these claims owe their fellow Catholics an apology. I challenge you to find any evidence that the FIs were promoting such ridiculous ideas as you list.
    Also, in your list, why on earth is “e) the denial the charismatic gifts and the charistmatic movement”
    on it? That is not radical traditionalism; it is common sense to be troubled by such a problematic movement as this one. Why is this movement protected from criticism to the extent that being wary of it (for many VERY good reasons) a sign of fringe radicalism? I think you need to edit your list to remove that.

  • OneTimothyThreeFifteen

    Dr M. Twice in two days!
    Thank you so much.
    This past week I have been tempted to ditch the blogosphere owing to all the hissy fits and paranoia about this issue and WYD, and it’s good to see someone speaking with reason, particularly as the issue affects you personally.

    • Gordis85

      Ah yes! Almost forgot, thank you Dr. Marshall for a fine piece. Stay strong and focused on the eternal prize as you assist those of us in the pews to better understand what is going on within certain factions of our beloved Church. May all be one, amen.

  • Since I’m a fixture at a couple of Novus Ordo parishes, I’ve heard from two priests and many laypeople their unfiltered opinions of Traditional Latin Mass-goers, and their absence of charity is jarring. Frankly, their comments reveal more about themselves than TLM-ers. But the point is, there’s a diabolical animus against the TLM and other neglected traditions of thought and practice that has seeped into the hearts and minds of many in the Church, and so the only way that’s going to change is if traditional Catholics increase in holiness and “put on the mind of Christ”. And so Dr. Marshall, Fr. Z, etc. are right in so far as the onus is on us to change things, and it will come from holiness. It’s a great moment of grace that God hopes we will accept.

  • Hendo

    My feeling after SP was that it accomplished most of what it set out to do. It reaffirmed the worth of the Church’s liturgical tradition. Most importantly, it responded to the threat of a preventable schism by extending a hand of peace and friendship to those who felt (justly, IMO) that the way the NO was promulgated pulled the centuries-old worship traditions upon which generations of Catholics had come — indeed, had been instructed and encouraged — to rely, right out from under them.

    A lot of those Catholics are still smarting and hurting. Half a century’s damage won’t be fixed in under a decade.

    There are a lot bigger problems inside and outside the Church than whether the TLM should again be suppressed. One senses that the Holy Father feels likewise.

    • Janusius Sancto

      Just curious, exactly what has the Holy Father done to give you the impression that he “senses that” too? In his short time in the papacy, what reforms has he instituted? Has the Curia been reformed yet? Well, no it has not. In fact, the talk of such reforms has mostly fallen by the wayside and is only casually mentioned occasionally. What about the dossier, has anything been done with that? Well, no, not actually. In fact, most recent comments have actually come to minimize the information contained in that file. So what has he done, exactly to show he grasps or senses anything?

      I have not seen any progress or anything to rejoice at yet. I have seen a lot of problematic statements that leave open an interpretation that can suit either side so as to give the traditionalists something that they might be able to interpret as a reason for a little hope and yet give the liberals and “conservatives” the opportunity to move full steam ahead with their own agenda.

      Reality is that this Pope did not have a good reputation prior to becoming pope. That is just a fact, no need to rewrite or explain away history. It is what it is. And reality is also that it has been some of the most liberal of the liberals who have come out in open support for him and are falling all over themselves with what they believe he will (and won’t) do. That is just fact. No way around it.

      Now ask yourself why that is.

  • Steven Schloeder

    I don’t have a dog in that fight, but your reading is very good, Taylor. Wise words and good advice.

  • kkroll

    You GO, big guy! What a great response … I will confess I had been just a bit worried. Your pick of Scripture was a great reminder–what “an opportunity” (to quote Father J. Gordon) to practice just that! Yeah … I am so glad to be Catholic.

  • JLM

    Dr. Marshall,

    I admire you as a Catholic intellectual and father and am an ardent supporter of Fisher More College. I am, however, disappointed in this analysis. While I agree with the counsel that we should remain calm and follow the instruction of St. Paul in Phil 2:14-15, I think you fall into the common trap of blaming Traditionalists first whenever something unfortunate befalls them.

    It goes something like this: Yes, the Bishop has disbanded the Latin Mass Community in his Diocese, but it’s really the traditionalists fault because they’re jerks; stubborn and difficult people. Some of them are even anti-semites and closet sedevacantists. I can’t really name who they are, but trust me they are there. If only they’d become active in the Diocese – you know – participate in the ecumenical prayer services and help with RCIA. Then everything would be okay.

    I always shake my head when I read lists like you put together in this post. It seems like the desire to be seen as mainstream always forces people to trot out these tendentious lists of supposed traditionalist faults. I’m curious where all these people are. Which people specifically at Mater Dei Parish in Irving are anti semites? I want to know. I keep hearing these claims and quite frankly I don’t believe the problem exists like so many “mainstream” Catholics say.

    As someone that only learned of the Traditional Mass after SP, I’ve become appalled at how Traditional Catholics are treated. I’ve seen this first hand. I’ve seen them belittled and treated as second class citizens by priests and bishops. And, instead of sympathy from mainstream conservative Catholics they are blamed for what befalls them. It’s baffling.

    • Matt W.

      I don’t think Dr. Marshall is blaming traditional Catholics for the decision of the pope to prohibit this group from celebrating the EF. He’s talking about potentially dangerous influences from separatist and sedevacantist groups who may be seeking to impose the EF on the religious order because they believe it to be superior in grace and efficacy to the OF. Therefore, perhaps the pope made this decision in order to highlight the fact that the there is no hierarchy of validity or efficacy between the different liturgies and should stick to the ORDINARY form until it can be shown that their reasons for wanting to celebrate the extraordinary form are not due to separatist influences (which seems valid since they were given the ability to do so if they seek and are given permission). Having that permission allows the bishop to ensure that separatist influences are not creeping in. This has nothing intrinsically to do with the extraordinary form of the mass and everything (it seems) to do with separatist groups who use that wonderful liturgy as a tool of division.

      All the criteria that Dr. Marshall listed, I have NEVER found in anyone I know who attends the EF parish in my diocese. But when we look at the writings and positions of people in groups like SSPX and sedevacantist sects (all of which could be labeled as “radical traditionalists”) we do see denials of the Holocaust, a rejection of Vatican II, and isolationist sub-cultures.

      It’s interesting that none of the news articles indicate that the order was prohibited from celebrating the OF in Latin or facing ad orientum. It seems that they very well could do that if they wanted to. Because Hey!… That’s how the actual liturgy is written!

      And personally, I’d love an OF liturgy in Latin ad orientum!

      • Kevin Tierney

        Just as an FYI, the liturgies they are celebrating, most of them will be in all latin, with the Roman canon, ad orientam. 🙂

        • ES

          I am very curious to see if that is actually what happens, and if it does, if it is allowed to last.

        • thetimman

          Kevin, I understand that this is relatively a good thing compared to so many OF Masses, but, if I may, quite respectfully, state this:

          Big woo.

    • Kevin Tierney

      It isn’t blaming traditionalists first. It’s just that certain conduct should be expected of us no matter what the situation is. And we aren’t living up to that conduct. Things are going to suck for traditionalists no matter what. We have to be above reproach. Is that fair? No. Yet part of being an adult is dealing with the world as it exists, not as we wish it to.
      So we need to be above reproach in all our actions.

      • defiant12314

        But Kevin we can NEVER be good enough for the liberals and the likes of Catholic answers who think that ANY criticism of Vatican two is tantamount to heresy, the bishops and religious who oppose us do so because they KNOW that we represent a very real threat to their ideology which has seen churches closed, orders shrivel up and millions apostatize ( believe me I know 7 such people, 6 of whom I work with).

        • Kevin Tierney

          And I know em to, and I’ve dealt with em for years. The real bad bunch are a dying breed, even if they don’t know it yet. Who cares what they think? Yet to those who aren’t traditionalists but sympathetic to our causes, they are paying attention to our behavior, and trust me, the way a lot of people have been acting since Francis became pope have done a lot of damage to traditionalism as a whole. A lot of people have stoked their own egos and feel good, but little else of value gets accomplished.
          Basically, when you go to say something, just say to yourself “based on these words, they will be held against me in judgement if they cause someone to be scandalized and their faith weakened or whithered away.” If there’s a chance your words are going to do that, either reformulate them, or just pipe down and let someone who can say it do so.

          • Gordis85

            Totally with you on this one…all one needs to do is visit two popular “trad sites” to have what you are saying confirmed. I am praying though despite it all that we will truly seek to become one as our Lord Jesus Christ prayed.

    • I’m no longer Chancellor of Fisher More College. I resigned in June.

      • JLM

        I’m very disappointed that you will no longer be at Fisher More. What are your plans for the future?

    • Churchill4President

      Well said. I found the charge of holocaust denial was particularly egregious.

  • JLM

    Dr. Marshall,

    I think it is also important that we use the correct terminology when referring to what happen in the FFI. This was not simply “disagreement” and “infighting”, but dissension. This was dissension among a minority within the FFI over the direction of the religious order and an unwillingness to follow the Major Superior.

    Of course, not that long ago we had the iron fisted implementation of the Novus Ordo on millions and millions of Catholics and tens of thousands of religious. What did we hear then? Obedience. We must be obedient to our superiors. But it seems this call to obedience only goes one way.

    • ‘Selective Enforcement’. Two words to remember.

    • Frank

      Wow…. I think JLM you are spot on. I have yet to find these so called anti Vatican ii anti semitic types at tlm and I’ve been going for years. On the contrary they are among the most dedicated Catholics I’ve seen….

  • ES

    What I find baffling about the whole situation is that everyone is glossing over what is to me the point that stands out most: that a small group of friars were stirring things up and causing division against a very reasonable and completely legal action of the superior of the order. If the situation was switched around, the EF people would be condemned roundly, by everyone, for disobedience. However, since those complaining were doing so in favor of the main stream, they get a free pass. Why? Aren’t we always told that those who love the traditional Mass are so disobedient…yet when disobedience suits their purpose, it is completely fine with the main stream? It is very hypocritical.

    I am also shocked by the harshness of Rome’s intervention. To replace an elderly and revered founder, who did nothing wrong? (Summorum Pontificum gives him the authority to decide the main usage of his order.) To forbid every priest from saying even a private EF Mass, without express permission from the new superior? It seems downright cruel.

    The benefit of this situation is at least we see that Rome can act promptly when they really care to. Orders with sexual abuse, heresy, or immorality might be tolerated, but they will draw the line somewhere, by golly!

    • Jim

      The litmus test for fidelity seems to eliminate those who do not somehow magically accept everything since 1970; that somehow, it is corrosive to foster devotion.

    • Bill B


      Have you looked at the blogs and the com boxes out there? This one is relatively calm and the FIs who appealed are getting flamed to a crisp! No free pass that I can see!

      The whole argument on Rorate and elsewhere is that just a few friars complained and the EF was revoked. As such, they would have a good reason to fear since this could happen to any order where a handful complainers exist, i.e. just about anywhere. But if you look on Catholic News Agency and Vatican Insider you will find that it is not just a few but about 80% of the friars in a conservative order who are disagreeing. This is very unique and thus has very little possibility of happening in other orders and has little to do with the EF. So there really is nothing to worry about in regard to the EF being suppressed.

      Take Dr. Marshall’s good remedy, rosary and beer. Sounds like a winner.

      • ES

        80% welcome Roman intervention. So, all of the friars are asked, “Do you welcome Roman intervention, or do you not?”, and 80% say yes. That is hardly surprising. What are they going to say, no? It does not address at all the original situation: dissent was being stirred against lawful superiors for a perfectly legitimate order. There is no way we are ever going to see (nor should we) statistics concerning who originally supported the superior and who did not, though some news sources are asserting that the group that appealed to Rome was extremely small, which is certainly telling. All we know is that those who dissented from their superior are now circulating that 80% welcome Roman intervention as justification for their original behavior. Hardly flattering.

  • Sheila77

    Then, please get permission. Obedience goes both ways. Pride is a killer. Some of the most wonderful Saints were obedient to what may or may not have been considered unjust. Offer it up, and God bless you.

    • The American friars said that their request was already in the mail. I woulda faxed it, but hey! Sending a letter makes everyone more happy.

  • Elizabeth Nelson

    Thank you very much for your very fair appraisal of the situation with the Franciscans, the details of which I was not aware. There is that, but fortunately, one of our wonderful priests gave his usual inspired short homily ( we have TWO priests that do this every single AM Mass– talk about the Wow-factor) about the weeds and the wheat which was a great take away considering what I was about to read when I got home. Sigh, I agree with you totally on the traps for trads in this our liturgical vale of tears. There are definitely weeds in the Vatican, but we have plenty of them here on the home front, too. As one who grew up in a vital traditional parish during the period of the true liturgical movement (Dad sang in a schola in the 50’s), I see it as one of the unfortunate effects of the complete post V II break in the US of “lived” Tradition with the rigidly authoritarian enforcement of “the spirit of VII” and the havoc which followed (ask me how I know). Unfortunately, outside of the liturgy (and the authentically etc’s attached to it) I have noticed a distinct tendency for well meaning people to “make up” tradition as they go along…. With some extremely unfortunate results that do not help us make a good case for its restoration at the parish/diocesan level…..

  • Janusius Sancto

    The section of Summorum Pontificum on religious communities is as follows:

    ‘Art. 3. Communities of Institutes of consecrated life and of Societies of apostolic life, of either pontifical or diocesan right, wishing to celebrate Mass in accordance with the edition of the Roman Missal promulgated in 1962, for conventual or “community” celebration in their oratories, may do so. If an individual community or an entire Institute or Society wishes to undertake such celebrations often, habitually or permanently, the decision must be taken by the Superiors Major, in accordance with the law and following their own specific decrees and statues.’

    • Bill B

      Yes, but consider the instruction Universae Ecclesiae:

      “19. The faithful who ask for the celebration of the forma extraordinaria must not in any way support or belong to groups which show themselves to be against the validity or legitimacy of the Holy Mass or the Sacraments celebrated in the forma ordinaria or against the Roman Pontiff as Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church.”

      Apparently the general support that the FI has given to schismatic groups is a concern amongst the friars who appealed. See the Catholic News Agency article on the matter. As such this would automatically call into question their rights under Summorum Pontificum

      • ES

        They reported with no specifics that one nun was becoming “influenced” by the SSPX. No specific was given, just a sort of hazy witch-hunt sort of accusation. And, apparently because of one nun, the whole order and the founder are being punished. Yeah right.
        I do know that when reconciliation looked likely, the FIs were trying to help. For trying to assist Pope Benedict’s dear wish of reconciliation in the Church, they are now being punished. That is very sad.

        • MP

          That is a very silly thing to say from someone who is on the OUTSIDE of what is going on.

          • Gordis85

            So typical though…all sheer speculation and ignorance now “reported knowingly as fact and always in a self-righteous way.”

  • Nellie

    I do appreciate your reminder to not let ourselves get carried away over this. However, I didn’t know that being wary of the charismatic movement makes me a far-right untrustworthy trad freak. (Aren’t all trads considered freaks in the eyes of the mainstream world these days?)

    Having grown up in a Protestant Pentecostal-style church, I am very wary of the charismatic movement. As a child, I sat trembling with fear in too many church services as people spoke in tongues, “prophesied” (usually something about persecution), were slain in the spirit, etc. I was terrified of the Holy Spirit all my life and am only now finally getting over that!

    Now the Catholic charismatic movement just seems to be creating more division within the Catholic Church. ( More division. That’s what we need.) And although most charismatic Catholics that I know are sincere, they also usually have sipped a bit too much from the Evangelical Protestant “cool aid.” How can the charismatic movement be authentically Catholic if it was started by Protestants

  • Tom Coffey

    I don’t know how you missed it but we radical traditionalists are also covered in boils ,beat our wives and drown puppies and kittens-

  • disqus_Pb3cIJ5sdV

    I demand proof that people who support the traditional latin mass in this order are acting out in such ways (i.e. denying the holocaust, denying Vatican II). That little list you gave is outrageous and is a complete lie.

    The people who support the tridentine mass aren’t trying to use the tridentine mass as a weapon or a chess piece. They simply want reverence brought back to the mass by celibrating a form of the mass which is much harder to alter and bring in irreverence. It is people like you who create this label that they are somehow using it as a chess piece to fight the “B team” Catholics.

    The novus ordo simply has no rules governing the way it is said that ensures the centrality of the pascal mystery. People who go to the latin mass are simply sick and tired of all the changes made to emphasize the “supper” aspect and which de-emphasize the sacrifice.

    The other thing that you fail to understand is that priests who celibrate the old mass also celibrate the new mass. Which means if they wanted to use the mass as a weapon they could do so with both. However, saying mass in Latin, ad orientem with Gregorian chant is not about waging a war, it’s about bringing reverence back to the liturgy. And that you will not stop that by banning the Tridentine Mass.

    • Matt W.

      it is not people who support the traditional latin mass that Dr. M is talking about it is “radical traditionalists” (different from traditional catholics) who are members of sedevacantist groups and other groups like SSPX who tend to espouse the views Dr. M listed there. All the reasons for supporting the tridentine mass that you listed are very good, but that is not what Dr. M is talking about.

      The fear is that there is a separatist/elitest strain creeping into this franciscan order (a la SSPS) to the extent that the EF is being used as a tool to create division.

      • disqus_Pb3cIJ5sdV

        He specifically accused members of the FI’s of a number of these things, in number 3 specifically and attacked other members elsewhere. I demand he provide proof if he is going to make such accusations.

        And his very comparison of these members of the FI’s to “radical traditionalists” is completely off base. (oh you love using the word radical to paint your enemies don’t you?)

        The FI’s are not comparable to sedevacantist groups or orders such as the SSPX. To compare them to these groups is a lie and is an attack, hence why the people that seem to be waging the war here seem to be Dr. M and those who follow him. If not then why is Dr. M attacking the traditionalist leaning FI’s by misrepresenting them?

        • Matt W.

          I never compared the FI’s with these groups. I merely stated that the characteristics described above by Dr. Marshall often attributed to “Rad Trads” (meaning groups like SSPX and sedevacantists…NOT FSSP or other traditional groups in union with Rome) could be creeping into an order, and in this case that order happens to be the FI’s. Especially the separatist view that the EF liturgy is superior in grace and efficacy to the OF liturgy. Which, as Dr. Marshall points out, is a concern of Father Angelo Mary Geiger of the FI’s in the United States.

          If that is the case, than the pope requiring the order to celebrate the OF liturgy can easily be seen as a disciplinary measure meant to stress the fact that the OF liturgy is the norm for the Roman Rite and that it is just as valid as the EF and that any view that may be held in contradiction to this is not acceptable.

          I’m not saying that this is definitely what is happening within the ranks of the FI, because no one really knows why this was decreed. So I’m proposing this as a reasonable possibility. It also fits that this could be the reason when we look at it in light of the fact that they can still seek (and be granted) permission to celebrate the EF. Again, if they have acceptable reasons (i.e. wanting to uphold and maintain our reverent liturgical heritage, emphasize the sacredness of of the liturgy, etc.) than they may very well be granted permission to continue. But if it is discovered that there are individuals within the FI who are advocating the use of EF because they believe the OF to be invalid or inferior, than that is something that needs to be addressed.

          This applies to any order, but it just so happens that it MAY be occuring in the FI’s at this time.

          • Gordis85

            A well thought out response. Thank you very much. ^^

    • Bill B

      Actually, I want proof from Rorate and Co. that this decree has been caused by a handful of dissidents in the FI. According to the articles at Vatican Insider, Catholic News Agency and Mary Victrix it is not just a few friars but a *shockingly* high majority of friars, and this in a conservative order. As such all the angst and vile attacks against the Pope and the discord being sown on this matter is completely unfounded. Further, those sowing this discord are going to look really, really stupid should this evidence fail to appear, or worse, if evidence to the contrary appears.

      On thing is perfectly clear, there is more to this than meets the eye. We need to know more before we judge. Where are those beads and beer?

      • Beads and beer. Nice.

        • Bill B

          Thanks, I was kind of proud of myself on that one. Thanks for all the clarity that you provided Dr. Marshall with your article.

      • Canvention

        It was indeed essentially a small group–perhaps all American–that has brought this about. Led by Fr. A. Yes, I have met him. This is a huge smacking of the fastest growing order and now they are under two progressive Franciscans whose branches of the order are dying out due to modernism. The modernist approach has meant the loss of MANY orders and souls. Is this preferable to following the holy founders? Could ther not have been a better way. But the friar known to pound his fist when he did not get his way fomented this and things will not be the same. Will the order continue to grow or wither like others?

  • Kevin Tierney

    For the most part, well said Dr. Marshall. Except…..

    Let’s ask ourselves something here: is using the qualification “radical traditionalism” actually helping anything? Holocaust denial and a complete rejection of the Second Vatican Council have NOTHING to do with Catholicism. Why the need to label? Why not just say what it is wrong: offensive and wrong.

    This doesn’t help distinguish “good” traditionalists from “bad” traditionalists. It casts suspicion over all traditionalists, even those who do real good work. It doesn’t matter how good we will be, we will always be under perennial suspicion of being the “radtrad”
    Besides, really think we are going to reach the fencesitter who got caught up in a bad situation by saying “accept vatican II, you vile disgusting radtrad!”
    Then the “radtrads” fire back with Neo-Catholic and whatever other creative insult they can come up with, and the cycle continues, and nothing of importance is actually done.
    So why not just disarmament on the insults (whether or not one intends it to be an insult, it comes across as an insult), and load up on firepower on the actual points of evidence?

    • Bill B


      I love all your work elsewhere and comments here, very helpful.

      Certainly “radtrad” is inflamatory and unhelpful. However, I have been reading much on this topic and radical traditionalism is a term often used with no insult intended and is accepted for describing those who take traditionalism too far. It is certainly a fundamental point of the whole debate that traditionalism can be taken too far along the lines outlined by Dr. Marshall, a rigid Jansenism that skirts outside fold, and as such even all the things that you fear might be implied are, unfortunately, accurate and helpful to point out that it can go too far. It is difficult and distinctions need to be made. Often “traditional” is used to distinguish from “traditionalism.” but it is very important to make terms clear.

      • Kevin Tierney

        Who is it accepted by? Those who the label applies to? One could say the same with “Neo-Catholic”, it has a pretty precise definition (The Great Facade went on for some 30 pages defining what it was and wasn’t), and there’s a real problem with some people who make their personal opinions and preferences the equivalent of defined Catholic dogma. Yet if I’m trying to prove that, is me shouting “Neo-catholic” going to do much?

        I assume the good doctor wants people to not adopt the “radical traditionalist” positions, and if you are adopting them, to knock it off. Is calling them a “radical traditionalist” going to open eyes, or more likely clench fists and pour gasoline on an already hot fire?

        Here’s a distinction: Latin Mass and accepting Vatican II as a Valid ecumenical Council good/saying OF and Vatican II bad, evil, and just plain wrong.

        Accepting Jews as individual human beings of equal dignity in need of a redeemer like the rest of us good/viewing jews as an evil cabal with inherent evil racial personality traits wrong and just a sign of evolutionary regression.

        I really don’t think its that difficult. One doesn’t need to say radtrad, radical traditionalism, or any of that. The good trads aren’t sullied by the insult.

        If tomorrow you drop the epithet “radical traditionalist” or “radtrad” I really don’t think anyone loses anything. And I’ll bet a case of their favorite craft beer over it. Mine is Left Hand Nitro Milk Stout.

      • I also wanna make it crystal clear: I’m not about softening opposition to wrong views. If anyhthing I think avoiding those labels makes it even easier to tackle: they can’t whine about being cast with insults and how this is proof they are viewed as second-class citizens/catholics. Besides, it makes us big flaming hypocrites if we ever object to “Neo-catholic” or whatever other colorful insult they can come up with. And trust me, crotchety people who spend their entire time drowning in their own rage on blogs are going to beat you in an insult war.

  • Matt Andrews

    This is a bunch of garbage. They don’t need permission. Typical “spirit” of V II. Another neocon rag. PH.D. Piled higher and deeper. Your twist of St. Paul is curious. You just need to go only to the Novus Ordo and stay there. I am not a rad trad but you are a piece of work.

    • Nick

      way to go Matt! Pope Frankie will only go after faithful Catholics while he degrades the papacy and all that is true and holy. Kyrie eleison.

      • Gordis85

        You just confirmed what I believe to be true based on your comments, negative, disrespectful and divisive towards the Holy Father. Yours must be a great mind to be able to read the Pope’s heart as you so self-righteously have made it known, “Pope Frankie will only go after faithful Catholics while he degrades the papacy and all that is true and holy.”

        I rest my case.

    • Sampson

      Matt, As usual you are wrong again.

  • dan hunter

    I love Rorate Caeli.
    With “Real Catholic TV” the blog is a voice for moral sanity in all charity in the Internet world.

    • Sampson

      Now Dan, Go take a big gulp of cool aid.

  • Glendon Cheshire

    Just as a reminder, calling someone a heretic usually accuses them of being in a state of mortal sin. I see Catholics, both conservative and trad, toss the words heresy and heretic WAY too easily. Unless you understand a heresy very well, refrain from calling a person a heretic. God bless.

    • Sampson

      Call em like you see em folks, a heretic is a heretic.

  • Matthias

    That appears and feels sad and somehow alienating to me. The Latin Mass got me back to Catholicism, giving me true faith, undescribable but sincere. Since I attended my first Latin Mass my life changed slowly but comstantly for the better. I guess when we will “wait” we’ll see. Or shouldnt we. There is no faith without works.

  • Michelle B. Evert

    “Stay out of traddy online forums/blogs. Pray more. Complain less.” – Thank you for this advice Dr. Marshall. It has been posted most timeously, as of late I was rapidly succumbing to the vitriolic opinions of Pope Francis being posted by some of the traddy blogs. This was the push I needed to delete both Rorate and Mundabor from my bookmarks. The latter is an especially hateful blog which I regret ever giving the time of day to.

  • Ave Maria

    Dr Marshall perhaps you should dig a little deeper as to why people are turning to TLM. I encourage you to spend considerable time studying and meditating the Latin prayers and those of the Novus Ordo. Give particular notice to the little subtle changes as well as the drastic changes keeping in mind the lex Orandi, lex Crecendi principle. Then reflect on our recent history and the difficulties we have, not just within the church, but also in the world in general and then perhaps then your opinion can be qualified! Need I say more?

    • Kevin Tierney

      You do realize that Dr. Marshall attends the Extraordinary Form, and it is offered daily at the school?

      • Podatus

        . . . and let’s remember that this intervention into the FFI’s began under Pope Benedict, before his announced retirement. Maybe, just maybe, there is something real and problematic with the FFI’s that has nothing to do with a hatred of the TLM.

        • Good point!

        • Ah, yes, we get out our microscopes for the “real and problematic” and let our imaginations run wild for it.. until we realize that the solution for the microcosmic problem was to do away with the TLM. I guess that proves it, no hatred of the TLM there, there’s that invisible speculative problem. That just so happened was fixed that way. How is that a fix might I ask? What does it ‘fix’? What a splendid fix? You will acknowledge this was the fix, and now this invisible problem is fixed and that was how it was fixed? What kind of problem could it be that had to be fixed that way? Hmm?

          Do tell. What kind of problem needs to be fixed that way? Might not there have been a better solution than forbidding the TLM?

          Do you think it might’ve been fixed a different way perhaps? Somewhat better perhaps?

          But it was fixed, wasn’t it, according to this hypothesis? Unlike you know the other problems that don’t need a microscope and a fertile imagination to “find”? And are not fixed with similar finality?

    • I try to attend the Latin Mass (EF) daily. Our family are members at a FSSP parish. Our children receive sacraments in the EF.

    • Sampson

      Yes Ave Maria, there is plenty more you need to say. And, as a friar with the FI. Stop riding the fence.

  • Wanderer

    There is a very wise maxim which is addressed to those weilding authority: abusus non tolit usum. This wisdom is being ignored in this case.

  • catherine adair

    “5) If you love the Latin Mass, remember that Latin Mass PEOPLE are the greatest enemies of the Latin Mass movement.”

    I don’t think I understand what you mean by this. Who are Latin Mass “people” exactly? I love the TLM for more reasons than I can state here. I believe the N.O. as it is currently practiced is rife with horrible abuses, and the laity are suffering because of it. Is your list of “rad trad” beliefs something that YOU feel or something that is true? If a traditionalist doesn’t think Pope JohnPaul II was all that and a bag of chips that doesn’t make him radical any more than someone who didn’t care for Pope Emeritus Benedict.

    It seems as though you are lumping us all into one group and hinting that we are all sedevacantist anti-Semite freaks. That is unfair. And I would add that the bigger problem is priests advocating for homosexual marriage, the indifference and outright sacrilege committed against our Blessed Lord in the Eucharist, and a laity completely uncatechized.

    • Kevin Tierney

      Simply that we are our own worst adversary at times. We go off on tangents without ever thinking how it looks to those who don’t think and act precisely as we do.
      The Latin Mass can’t thrive when the people aren’t thriving in holiness. Simply the maxim that we need to reform ourselves before we reform anything else.
      Take for example what you cite at the end, those advocating for gay marriage, rife liturgical abuses, and a lay faithful that remains ignorant on most if not all Catholic teaching. If you think traditionalists are the only ones talking about these issues, you need to get out more. And bad as these issues are, they don’t excuse bad conduct. Focus on Holiness above all else, preferably your own.
      I didn’t start attending the Extraordinary Form because the Novus ordo sucks hardcore. I have attended the EF for the last 11 years because I find it a beautiful liturgy that does a great job of teaching timeless truth, and the world needs more timeless truth.

      • catherine adair

        I m not sure what bad conduct you are referring to and I’m not sure why you made the comment I need to get out more? I find the people (and Sisters & Brothers) in my TLM community to be the humblest of souls, the most charitable givers, and all-around cheery Christians. We don’t sit around wailing and moaning about the problems in the Church, we simply try to live the faith in the fullest way we can. This is why I think it is better to avoid labels like “radtrad” because it doesn’t serve any purpose other than to sow confusion, mistrust, and misunderstanding. It would be much better to say “such and such a community say this….” or ” on their website, so and so says this…” thus avoiding any potential misunderstanding.

        • I actually agree with you on the radtrad label. I think its petty, childish, and really, its beneath intelligent people to use it. People feel the need to do it to label and stigmatize the “other.” I can understand when those who aren’t traditionalists use the moniker. They are wrong, but I understand. When those who go to Latin Masses use it, did they not forget the cloud of suspicion that hung over all our heads because of that term? No matter what, for the longest time, even good traditionalists were “radtrads” in the eyes of many in authority, or constantly under suspicion of being one.

          My statement “you need to get out more”, people who aren’t traditionalists care about the things you mention as well. They agree with you we should focus on these things! Your comments will come across as they are ignoring real problems to focus on something trivial, a.k.a something you don’t like. That’s going to insult them, and some of them are going to be less likely to go to the Latin Mass because of that. Should they maybe grow some thicker skin? Perhaps. Yet our actions contributed to driving people away. They wont get to see you are overall cheery Christians trying to work out their salvation humbly. They won’t listen to our message if they think we view them as inferior.

          • catherine adair

            I understand better your comments now. Thank you for clarifying. I agree, and thank you for some things to ponder. God bless you.

          • In the end, that’s what matters. We constantly ponder our actions, mine included. The more we do that, the less likely we offend others pointlessely.

  • Elleblue Jones

    Thank you so much for a great overview of the real issue(s). I read another account about the internal strife and came to similar conclusions that you have. What is it about us humans that we constantly feel the need to set up a us versus them scenario??

  • Jackie

    Oh no! This will give my sede vacantist relatives more ax to grind!

  • Dr. Marshall, actually, the most-level headed and intriguing comments were from Rorate Caeli. I certainly need to read them to stay informed. Laypeople and sisters-the FFI supports the largest numbers of traditional sisters outside the SSPX fold apparently- will hurt the most, as will those considering vocations. The growing attraction to the TLM, an the association with it by laymen is why my friend is considering the order. This division was news to all of us, and his vocation has already been hindered.

  • absconde_me

    Dr. Marshall:
    Thank you, and Our Father bless you, for sharing light, and not shedding heat. You are helping others to cling to hope, and Pope Francis’ words give reason for much hope, at a moment ripe for the temptation to despair.
    I hope for the survival and re-growth of the Roman Catholic culture in the Catholic Church. I pray for the end of the suppression of the Roman Canon, by which the Church has abandoned the living connection back to our family across the ages. I attend Mass only at parishes that celebrate the Novus Ordo form of the Holy Mass, and at age 57, a former altar boy and choir boy of what is now the E.F. form of the Holy Mass, I have suffered through the agony of a Church utterly emptied out of culture, and the irony and futility of the Church urging Catholics to maintain their cultural identity, and deleting the very source of its identity, its “cult.”
    How ironic that Pope JP2’s last book was “Memory and Identity!” Our poor Church seems to have lost its mind in the determination to erase its memory. God give us the grace to save ourselves from so great a tragedy, that we even reject the most ancient Eucharistic Prayer of the Church, the treasure chest of our cultural endowment.
    May God help give the grace of perseverance to all men and women who know and love what has been “handed down” through the ages by our ancestors in the faith, and may we all dedicate ourselves to cultivating the ancient and living tree of tradition, the one thing that transcends time.

  • NickD

    Thank you for this post, good Doctor. I especially appreciate your comments on Rorate Caeli et al.

  • DonnaRuth

    Lord have mercy on us I just scanned through the comments. Oh, please: Stoppit! Stoppit! Stoppit!
    The Mass is the Mass is the Mass. We receive the most glorious Body and
    Blood of our most precious Lord Jesus Christ: whether it be OR or EF. We
    are so blessed. Can we not see it? Millions have no faith; millions
    more live in abject poverty. And, millions are enslaved by disordered
    passions encouraged by our frail society. Let us fall to our knees and
    thank God we live on this continent, we have Mass available to us, and,
    most importantly, we receive the Holy Eucharist. Let this all go, and
    let us reach out physically and spiritually to those who have little or
    nothing. I think our Lord would be scandalized by our kvetching over
    this. Let it go. Love the Lord. Love the Mass. Give thanks for the Holy
    Eucharist. Move along, folks.

  • margiesindelar

    AMEN! you are spot on, I used to be interested in the TLM, but after my experience with the TLM PEOPLE, I would rather sit in the pew, next to drunks and prostitutes, then the angry Pharasees that I have encountered that go to the TLM……

    • John F. Ambs

      DonnaRuth–you are correct, of course. The Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Our Lord are precious and paramount in our faith. God bless your faith. The problem is, the ceremonial surrounding the valid sacrament in the Novus Ordo (as it is commonly offered) simply doesn’t promote reverence nor belief in the Real Presence. Millions upon millions have left the faith since the V-II revolution; the cold, hard metrics on the Catholic Church paint a picture of disaster. So…as a dad of three kids (and one in heaven), I must strongly disagree: if you want to instill the totality of the faith to your children, the Rite (or should I say “mode”?) of Mass does matter. I’m sorry that Traditional Catholics sometimes lack charity–it’s been a rough 50 years! It’s grief and sadness almost beyond bearing to see what’s been lost–most especially the souls of friends and family who have left the church or only show up on Christmas and Easter.

      • DonnaRuth

        John, we attended the NO while raising our children. During that time we also attended the EF for several years (it is not readily available where we live). Despite having grown up with the NO and the lack of “reverence,” our children not only have embraced the faith, they are eagerly transmitting it to our 6 grandchildren. We homeschooled and tried to be diligent in teaching the faith to them. The key message we sought to leave with them was the treasure that is the Holy Eucharist, the source and summit of life. It is the same Jesus who comes down on the altar in both the NO and EF Masses, and, in the end, that is all that matters. I might add that despite several years exposure to the reverence of the EF, our children grew up to prefer the NO.

        • Janusius Sancto

          Donna, It is wonderful that your children have managed to keep the faith and that they are trying to transmit it to their own children. However, that does not equate to all Masses being equal. An irreverent Mass is simply not equal in the amount of graces that a reverent Mass can provide. A valid consecration is absolutely necessary – without it you do not even have a Mass – but that is not all that matters. There is an article online titled “The Fruits of the Mass: Are all valid Masses equal?”. I encourage you to google the title and read the article. If you have trouble finding it, let me know and I will see if I can find the link.

          • DonnaRuth

            Oh dear: “An irreverent Mass is simply not equal in the amount of graces that a reverent Mass can provide.” Janusius, I am reading similar sentiments in various places. When we start picking at the validity of NO Masses, we are putting ourselves on a path out of the Church. We can’t just have a little bit of Jesus in the consecrated Host at an NO Mass, and a full Jesus in an EF Mass. Either He is there – or not. At every Mass we hear the sacred Word of God proclaimed, and we receive the Body of Christ at Communion time. These are inestimable riches for our souls. Yes, I well know how hard it is to be focused when it seems an NO is a bit of a man-centred zoo, but we must practice the custody of the eyes and the hearts by putting our heads down, keeping our eyes on our missals, or keeping our eyes closed. All this will open the doors to necessary communion with God during the Mass – EF or NO. At any Mass the graces are there for us to appropriate. While it may be hard to remain focused, we just need to be vigilant. Deus providet.

          • Janusius Sancto

            Donna, Read the article I mentioned above and then reply. You replied with feelings and emotions, but that has nothing to do with actual theology. There is absolutely no reason why you should not look into this. This is an important issue that you, as well as every other Catholic out there, should come to understand. Perhaps if everyone learned about this and came to understand it, no one would be wiling to allow anyone to make a shamble of the Mass. Here are a few quotes that were used in the article:

            From “The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”, Fr. Gihr: “But the case is different when the Eucharistic Sacrifice is considered in its relation to man. From this point of view it aims at procuring our salvation and sanctification, and is, consequently, a means of grace, or rather a source of grace, bringing us the riches of heavenly blessings. (…) The fruits which the Sacrifice of the Mass obtains for us from God are only finite, that is, restricted to a certain number and determining measure… The Sacrifice of the Mass, therefore, with respect to man can have only a restricted efficacy, and in its fruits is capable of only limited application.”

            The Catholic Encyclopedia: “the greatness and extent of this ecclesiastical service is dependent on the greater or less holiness of the reigning pope, the bishops, and the clergy throughout the world, and for this reason in times of ecclesiastical decay and laxity of morals (especially at the papal court and among the episcopate) the fruits of the Mass, resulting from the sacrificial activity of the Church, might under certain circumstances easily be very small”.

            Fr. Gihr: “But since the holiness of the Church consists in the sanctity of her members, it is not always and invariably the same, but greater at one period than another; therefore, the Sacrifice of the Church is also at one time in a greater, at another in a lesser degree pleasing to God and beneficial to man”.

            St. Thomas: “and in this respect there is no doubt but that the Mass of the better priest is the more fruitful”. (III, Q 82, A.6)

            Fr. Gihr: “the faithful are thus guided by sound instinct when they prefer to have Mass celebrated for their intentions by an upright and holy priest, rather than by an unworthy one…”.

            St. Bonaventure: “it is more profitable to hear the Mass of a good priest than of an indifferent one”.

            Fr. Gihr: “The Church not only offers the Sacrifice, but she moreover unites with its offering various prayers and ceremonies. The sacrificial rites are carried out in the name of the Church and, therefore, powerfully move God to impart His favors and extend His bounty to the living and the dead. By reason of the variety of the formulas of the Mass, the impetratory efficacy of the Sacrifice can be increased… also the nature of the prayers of the Mass and even of its whole rite exerts accordingly an influence upon the measure and nature of the fruits of the Sacrifice. From what has been said there follow several interesting consequences. Among others, that, on the part of the Church, a High Mass solemnly celebrated has greater value and efficacy than merely a low Mass. (…) At a Solemn High Mass the external display is richer and more brilliant than at a low Mass; for at a solemn celebration the Church, in order to elevate the dignity of the Sacrifice, manifests greater pomp, and God is more glorified thereby. (…) This grander and more solemn celebration of the Sacrifice is more acceptable to God and, therefore, more calculated to prevail upon Him to grant us, in His mercy, the favors we implore; – that is, to impart greater efficacy to the petitions and supplications of the Church.”

            All Fr. Gihr quotes are from “The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”

          • DonnaRuth

            Thanks for the article, Janusius. I did read it, in particular noting the quotes of St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure. They write it is more “profitable” and more “fruitful” to hear the Mass of a good priest. Yes, no doubt that we do profit from the reverence of a priest, and a rich, meaty homily, but the actual graces we receive are not diminished by an indifferent priest; the sacramental graces of the Holy Eucharist, and the benefit of hearing Sacred Scripture are paramount for our souls. Throughout history Catholics have had to deal with indifferent priests; the matter is that for most Catholics throughout history, and even now in second and third world countries, there was not an option to jump into the car and go to Fr. Holy’s Mass across town. They may have had the same indifferent priest for decades. But, God provides!

            Think of knee-replacement surgery. You hear that you are getting the most skilled surgeon in the state, but that he cheats on his wife, abuses his children, kicks his dog, is nasty to the scrub nurses, is known as a reckless driver and has a horrific bedside manner. Yet, despite all that, he has a God-given gift with scalpels and sutures. So it is with priests; some may be sons of guns personally, but when they stand at the altar at the time of Consecration, they are alter Christus. Deo gratias!

          • Elizabeth

            I didn’t read Janusias saying that a Novus Ordo Mass is invalid.

          • Elizabeth

            I didn’t read Janusias saying that a Novus Ordo Mass is invalid.

          • Sampson

            Don’t believe what you have read, it is a lie.,

    • You find a lot of Pharisees in the Ordinary Form as well. So in the end, our drunks are a lot more entertaining than the drunks in the Ordinary Form.
      If that isn’t a strong pitch for traditionalism, I dunno what is.

  • michael

    I love the Latin mass – I think there is so much beauty, rich tradition, and spiritual depth that I would hate to see the Catholic church let go of. But you know what? The parish I’m a part of, in inner-city southcentral Los Angeles, that incorporates gospel music in its English mass and mariachi and cumbia in in Spanish mass is also full of beauty, richness, and spiritual depth. My problem with a lot of the hard-core traditionalists is that they make it feel like we have to choose between the two. If we are truly going to embrace our identity as catholics (literally, the global, universal church), then all the different cultural expressions need to be celebrated for what they bring to the body of Christ.

  • Churchill4President

    How can Pope Francis or anyone for that matter be against the Traditional Latin Mass? Every day Pope Francis gives me more reasons to doubt and question him. He is indeed the Pope of our punishment.

    • Sampson

      Oh Please!

  • Roger

    Also the horns on the “radical traditionalists”! You forgot to mention those.

  • Simon Hill

    I am a Catholic of the post Vatican II era and have never had the privilege of participating in the Latin Mass. I love Holy Mass. It is truly my favourite time and place in all the world.

    I don’t believe that one form is “better”, “more correct”, or “true”.

    Having said that, I do believe that Latin is the language of God’s Holy Roman Catholic Church. It is one of the things that makes us “catholic”… the one universal language of the liturgy. When I watch Latin Masses via the internet… despite my English speaking background, I can follow the liturgy and in fact, I feel very deeply enriched by the experience.

    Infighting and nastiness achieves nothing positive. It displays a lack of love for neighbour. It drives people away from the Church and therefore, away from God.

    Notice that the Holy Spirit did not come into the world at Pentecost and make all the disciples speak Latin…
    “Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem. And at this sound the crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in the native language of each. Amazed and astonished, they asked, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own native language?” (Ac 2:5–8)

    Let us remember to love one another and to participate in the public prayer of the Church in whatever sanctioned way to which we are privileged to have access.

    • Elizabeth

      It’s not about the Latin language! It’s about the Novus Ordo Mass and the traditional Mass. What language is spoken at the Mass, for this discussion, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

      They are two different Masses with different readings, different prayers, a different structure entirely, a different calendar, a different focus and a different theology( in my opinion). Really and truly quite different, aside from the obvious difference that the traditional Mass has always been offered in the Latin language.

    • Elizabeth

      It’s not about the Latin language! It’s about the Novus Ordo Mass and the traditional Mass. What language is spoken at the Mass, for this discussion, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

      They are two different Masses with different readings, different prayers, a different structure entirely, a different calendar, a different focus and a different theology( in my opinion). Really and truly quite different, aside from the obvious difference that the traditional Mass has always been offered in the Latin language.


    Dr. Marshall, thank you for the sanity. God bless you.

  • isabel kissinger

    The pope knows what he is doing. He is the Vicar of Christ, is guided by the Holy Spirit and His Office been guaranteed the grace of infallibility. Let us pray to God for us to keep still.

  • Allan Hayes

    Absolutely incredible! And yet, Pope Frances gives the manager of the Roman guest house, where he stays instead of the Papal apartments, who is known to be openly gay and has lost previous jobs because of living with gay lovers (and who could arrange trysts along corridors with the greatest of ease), … a high-ranking job in the Vatican Bank. Very, very astounding, to say the least.

    • Sampson

      yes Allan, very astounding indeed. Now go drink you cool aid.

  • dan hunter

    Dr Marshall,

    I am a radical Catholic traditionalist and you state the following about us:

    “a) the denial of the Jewish holocaust
    b) the outright denial of Vatican 2 as a valid council
    c) rhetorical style of the Rorate Caeli blog
    d) the embrace of isolationist sub-culture of Catholicism or “Amish Catholicism”
    e) the denial the charismatic gifts and the charistmatic movement
    f) sympathy for the Bp Williamson’s style of traditionalism
    g) disdain for Pope John Paul II and Pope Francis
    h) the belief that Latin Mass Catholics are “A Team” and Novus Ordo Catholics are “B Team”
    i) Gnostic ecclesiology – that “traditionalists” form the one true invisible Catholic Church”

    This is simply not true.

    Please apologize for these inaccurate insults.

    ⬇ Drag and drop your images here to upload them.


    • If the shoe does not fit, do not wear it. He says some people believe this stuff. If you don’t how can this be an insult. Are you saying that nobody believes this stuff? How do you distinguish between a “radical” traditionalist and a regular tradionalist Catholic?

    • Sampson

      Do not apologize for telling the truth Dr. Marshall. This is typical behavior when a radical traditionalist is questioned. The truth is, all of these things you list are taught and preached in one form or another at the facilities where the Fi reside.

  • ArtSippo

    Great post! Claiming to be Catholic while disdaining the Pope is an oxymoron. VCII was a divine intervention to prevent the pigeon-holing of the Catholic Church as just another denomination. Aggioramento was intended to expand Catholicism beyond the dialectical positions of the Counter-Reformation. It isn’t neat. It isn’t uniform. It calls for unity in diversity. That is what “catholic” really means.

    • dan hunter

      As the Church infallibly and magisterially pronounces, and always declares and teaches, “There is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church”.

    • Janusius Sancto

      Actually, after the past 50 years, the Catholic Church appears to be viewed exactly as “just another denomination” – not just from those outside the Church but even by those within the Church.

      As for VII, the council itself never declared it to be a doctrinal council but a pastoral council. And FYI, there have been bad councils in the past and they came to be recognized as such. It will be no surprise to me if VII is eventually recognized as such. We already have many in the Church (I am speaking of those in full and normal union) who recognize this.

    • Gee there’s a name of someone crawling out from underneath a rock…. 😉

  • thetimman

    Oh. Yes. The rad trads. Scary. I’m surprised you don’t have some grainy, 8mm footage one one lurking in the distance to prove they exist.

    Not only do I agree with your disclaimer that “most people” attending the TLM don’t meet your criteria, I doubt you could produce a single one.

    • dan hunter

      I go to Diocesan TLM’s, FSSP TLM’s and SSPX TLM’s and I have never encountered one traditionalist who believe’s:
      a] the Holocaust did not happen
      b]Vatican II was not a valid Council of the Church
      Maybe Bishop Williamson [non-SSPX] and some sedevacantists think this, but they are an extreme minority [under 10,000] and do not deserve to be even mentioned in the same breath with trads.

      • I’m sure you’re right, and reporting accurately your observations. I too have never observed such a person in real life. But they do exist on the internet. They may be way overrepresented in comment threads, compared to real life, but they exist in comment threads, and boy can they write. For all I know there are none in North America and they’re all writing from Europe. But since Dr. Marshall is writing on the internet and writing about the internet, I think he is justified in referring to them. I think there was no offense intended towards those who do not have those characteristics, and no reason to take offense.

  • Skeinster

    Mr. Tierney has said it all very well. I will second his motion that we drop the “radtrad” label for all time. Accuracy is our friend. When speaking about a particular organization, describe them correctly, by detail.. If they are sedes, or have pronounced sede tendencies, say that. If they allow vocal Holocaust deniers, say that. If they subscribe to odd conspiracy theories, say that. If they appear to be a cult, say that.

    It really is not fair, but as long as there is a self-styled “traditional” lunatic fringe, ordinary EF attendees and supporters will have to be squeaky-clean and simon pure. We should be aiming at that anyway, so now we have even more incentive. Plus, I trust we’re all mature enough to not think that life is going to be fair.

    I love the EF- been blessed to have it available for over twenty years- and have supported our community (now a parish) accordingly. I am cognizant of the many spiritual benefits it bestows on those who attend it with goodwill. But I have to be honest- I sometimes had to take a break from my fellow attendees, because the everlasting “moan, moan, moan” about literally everything got to be too much sometimes. And I have always been puzzled by our perpetual insistence on shooting ourselves in the foot on a regular basis.

    That is the gist of Dr. Marshall’s post and Mr. Tierney’s comments. I agree with both wholeheartedly.

    • I’m sure Dr. Marshall has seen these comments, and I just hope he considers it. Let me just encourage them: you lose NOTHING by dropping this term, and gain quite a bit. take away the whole “radical traditionalist” name-calling, and this is a pretty solid post. Says to wait for all facts before poppin off, the importance of individual holiness in how we conduct ourselves, and an emphasis to pray for everyone involved.

  • Bill

    P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

    friend challenged my anger and rude remarks over groups who refuse
    celebrate the NO Mass. I viewed these people as separatists, dividing
    the Church, fracturing the unity among the faithful with their
    conservative, archaic views. After much reading and multiple Papal
    Encyclicals, clearly V2 swerved off the path with a new rite of
    worship that looks and feels Protestant, not and updated version of
    the Traditional Rite. The answer to the conflict we are discussing
    begins and ends with V2 who created a new Mass which was never to
    change. Refer to QUO PRIMUM BULL OF POPE ST. PIUS V

    no one whosoever is permitted to infringe or rashly contravene this
    notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, direction,
    grant, indult, declaration, will, decree and prohibition. Should any
    person venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the
    wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

    Given at
    St. Peter’s, Rome, in the year of Our Lord’s Incarnationone thousand
    five hundred and seventy, on the fourteenth day of July in the fifth
    year of Our Pontificate.

  • Dan

    I understand that this might be an important discussion for Catholics to have, but I gotta add that this is the kind of thing that makes Protestants and Evangelicals roll their eyes and perhaps walk away. With all due respect to the Catholic Church, if Paul were alive today, what would he say in a letter to the Catholic Church on this issue?

    • Elizabeth

      He’d probably say to man up, admit the error, and immediately toss out the Novus Ordo, restore the traditional Mass as the absolute norm, and re-write every single document that came out of Vatican II to accurately and crystal-clearly express unadulterated Catholic teaching. That’s a good start though I’m sure he’d have lots more to say.

      • Sampson

        No, that is not what he would say. This is heresy, pure and simple

    • Elizabeth

      He’d probably say to man up, admit the error, and immediately toss out the Novus Ordo, restore the traditional Mass as the absolute norm, and re-write every single document that came out of Vatican II to accurately and crystal-clearly express unadulterated Catholic teaching. That’s a good start though I’m sure he’d have lots more to say.

  • Dan Huber

    “good point” “Beads and Beer” “no longer chancellor at FM” ???

    Thats it? Thats all you have? Weak! You are getting spanked here on your own blog and your supporters are trying to “interpret” what you might be saying.

    What is your goal here…having this blog? Sell more books? Get a few other guest spots on some EWTN shows? I also attend the TLM at your church and I would like to hear you answer Janusius, Dan Hunter, JLM and disqus_Pb3cIJ5sdV questions.

    What parts of Fr. Geigers pasta do you think stuck to the wall?

    Do you NOT think there are organized supernatural and naturalistic forces out to destroy The Church?

    What better way to gut one of the fastest growing orders than to cut out the TM.

    “I love the Latin Mass. However, if I were Pope Francis and read the comments at Rorate Caeli, I’d be tempted to shut it all down. It looks sinful and disgusting from the outside.”


    What is sinful and disgusting is the norm at MOST N.O. Masses…tank tops, flip flops, cell phones, eating food, talking like their at a cocktail party, dressing like a Miami hooker…and thats just the Eucharistic ministers..HA!

    Never in 40+ years at a N.O. Mass did I ever hear a Priest talk about “custody of the eyes” oh sure you get your standard “abortion is bad blah blah blah…”(***Note to Priest*** act really angry now when you talk about it) What all Catholics need…especially the Priests and Bishops is a severe punch in the throat with the Truth.

    “Pray more. Complain less.” More poppycock… Pray more Complain more is what we should be doing…The hirearchy needs to be lit up with letters and calls from us Latin Mass PEOPLE.

    Dude you are accountable…eternally accountable.You have 11K followers and are an “author” and a “Phd” and people may perceive you as an “authority”…Be very careful.

    So I ask you again…Man up. Clear it up. Back it up. or go hang it up. Your blog…your words…you’re responsible.
    If you want to talk about it face to face…you know me. I am at the 9AM Mass at Mater Dei on the 2nd and 4th Sundays…You will probably see me in the confession line…Bald guy…I’ve been told I look like Burce Willis… “So yippee ki yay….”

    • Elizabeth

      Hear, Hear! And thanks for the good chuckles. You’re a good writer!

    • dan hunter

      The best post on here.
      God bless you good sir.
      Spoken like a good Catholic.

  • “If you love the Latin Mass, remember that Latin Mass PEOPLE are the greatest enemies of the Latin Mass movement. I love the Latin Mass. However, if I were Pope Francis and read the comments at Rorate Caeli, I’d be tempted to shut it all down. It looks sinful and disgusting from the outside. Keep a lock on your lips. Stay out of traddy online forums/blogs. Pray more. Complain less.”

    Well said.

  • Alice Herrick-Davis

    Most of that list is not bearing on the salvation of your soul. Example: I can, if I wanted, deny the Jewish holocaust and still obtain salvation. What they need to do is make sure all Catholic are not denying any part of the Faith. I would like a test between “traditionalist” and “charismatics” to see who outright denies doctrines of our Faith.
    The traditionalist is getting picked on, while the charismatics are allowed to go into schism and heresy.

  • Joan

    I agree with the post on today’s Saint Louis Catholic Blog. This ia a disappointing opinion from Dr. Marshall.

  • Anham Mahna

    What a beautiful post. Yay!

  • I am not spartacus

    Father Angelo Mary Geiger bore false witness agianst me and refused to source his putative accurate quote (from me) when I challenged him.

    The actual fact is said I exactly the opposite of what he accused me of saying

    He is to be trusted as far as the reader can throw Oprah.

    • Sampson

      Spartacus, This is how they are, they frequently speak from both sides of the mouth.

  • I’m against the things on the radical traditionalist checklist, especially g). I’m against them all. Except d). Anybody know where I can sign up for d)?

    • Skeinster

      I like d), too. Not as a hidey-hole, but as an alternative enclave.

      • I may steal you nomenclature, there, I like it. “alternative enclave”

  • Brother Juniper

    Your snap shot of the elements of traditionalism is both dishonest and unfair. It would be like calling the Novus Ordo the “Clown and Balloon Mass” because it has happened a very few times. “I must needs praise you for your constant memory of me, for upholding your traditions just as I handed them on to you.”

    • It’s NOT a snap shot of “traditionalism!”

      • dan hunter

        Dr. Actually it is.
        It is a narrow view of traditionalists based on what you want to see.

        • No. It’s an accurate description of a group of people who really exist. If I say Group B is a subset of Group A I am not saying that Group A and Group B are identical. If the shoe does not fit, do not wear it.

    • Can you guys read? Here are the alternatives: 1) nobody believes that list, or 2) some people believe that list. If you personally do not believe that list obviously he’s not talking about you. Maybe the discussion could move forward if you were to provide us with a term we could use to describe people who believe that list. Are we allowed to talk about those people, or must we pretend that they don’t exist.


    Once you start to study the church of the last 50 years, you cannot help but see something is very seriously wrong. 5 years ago, 5 guys began a men’s led rosary praying to protect marriage. Over 100 people have joined us. After 261 straight weeks of meeting, praying the Rosary and studying the teachings of the Catholic Church and the Catechism, we became traditional Catholics about 2 years ago. The Truth is the Truth. Christ said he is the way and the Truth. We discovered there is little truth in the Ordinary form of the Mass. It is a show, and mostly protestant in form and content. Whereas the Latin Rite is an unbelievabley moving experience with God, in the most intimate form…pure worship and adoration…facing our God and placing Him at the center of everything, with no distractions in being with Him.
    Up to this blog I have enjoyed the articles, but this one was back stabbing and treacherous on the community that is most faithful to Jesus and his Church, the Traditional Catholics.

  • romanitas

    Dear Dr. Marshall,

    I count a best friend among your fellow instructors at the College, I’ve followed your blog from Italy, and I appreciate your level-headed article, however, I think your “a-i” enumeration (alliteration?) of rad-trad defects is more harmful than anything else, mainly because you lump so much together. Personally, I find Fr. Z’s suggestion more revealing of actual traditionalist communities (which I’ve known in Europe, Africa and America.) Almost no trad “denies the holocaust”, though many read Dr. Sungenis or Culture Wars for other reasons. Also, Rorate Caeli comprises a large number of comments…but few habitual commenters. Their leadership has changed recently and they are no partisan to many of the traddie-sins you listed. They are always the harshest in criticism, but if we fall into papalotry or into an excessive gullible view of all ecclesial matters, a healthy dose of Rorate could do us all well, I think. I’m a university professor and I consistently judge them to be rigorous in research and faithful – at least in word – to all that the Holy Roman Church asks of Her faithful. Am I missing something to which you are privy?

    • Elizabeth

      Regarding just whose “list” it is, Mr. Marshall responded to me with this: “Its a snap shot from the point of view if Fr Angelo and those concerned about where a minority in the FI could be going.”

      Frankly, I’m still a little unclear but apparently he’s saying that those aren’t HIS descriptors of traditional Catholics. They are Fr. Geiger’s descriptors relating to what’s going on with the FI.

  • Vincent Tuason

    again, it pains me to see that we are fighting over the eucharist, the sacrament that is supposed to unite us.

    our disdain for each other, our senseless name calling, our propensity for senseless anxiety and pride are the wounds of Christ that never heals. what has happened to us? where has civility gone to?

  • Francis

    I find your analysis of the prohibition of EF amongst the FI truely disturbing. Characterizing the Latin Mass PEOPLE as the greatest enemies of the Latin Mass is preposterous. Your dishonorable attempt at demagoging traditionalists or “radical traditionalists” as you label them is all too obvious and it betrays your phoniness.

    • Sampson

      No Francis this is what the heretics always say when caught red handed.

  • Verbum

    “5) If you love the Latin Mass, remember that Latin Mass PEOPLE are the greatest enemies of the Latin Mass movement. I love the Latin Mass. However, if I were Pope Francis and read the comments at Rorate Caeli, I’d be tempted to shut it all down. ”

    Since I have seen the most offensive heresy and degeneration of morals from people who adhere to
    the Novus Ordo I guess that Mass should be all shut down, right?

    Since liberals and Modernists prefer the Novus Ordo then we should throw it down right?

    See what I amgetting at?

  • Albin joseph paul

    The cause and Solution for this Problem is clearly written by proffesor plinio corrêa de oliveira in his book Revolution and Counter revolution.

  • Janusius Sancto

    Professor de Mattei has weighed in on this issue. I recommend everyone read what he has to say. You can search the title of his article in order to find it: ‘The “Causa” Franciscans of the Immaculate’ by Roberto de Mattei. It can be found on ‘The Eponymous Flower’ blog. They titled their post ‘Robert de Mattei: Franciscans of the Immaculata Models in Situation of Liturgical, Theological and Moral Anarchy’. You can also find it on Angelqueen, for those familiar with that forum. It was posted on AQ under the title ‘Robert de Mattei on “F” v. FI: A “serious” intentional effect on the Church.

  • Francis Solotier

    I find myself quite surprised by your comments. I have been following Rorate Caeli for sometime and really don’t find the writing anything akin to what you state here. I also don’t find any of those points made about radical traditionalists present in RC. It is getting to the point that one can’t simply prefer the old rite without being vilified. I thought that was the point of SP. I have been attending the EF in various states for a number of years and I have to encounter individuals that subscribe to those ideas above. Where are they?

    • If you don’t believe the points on that list how are you being villified? It seems to me that there are a group of people accurately described by that list. Obviously, and I mean really obviously, Dr. Marshall was talking about the people who the list applies to and wasn’t talkiing about the people the list doesn’t apply to. So he wasn’t talking about “everybody who attends an EF Mass.” But here’s the reason I’m writing: do you have a term that we could use to describe the people for whom that list is accurate? If you could come up with one I think it would advance the discussion.

      • That’s right. I’m not talking about everyone who attends the EF. Otherwise, I’d be condemning myself, my wife, and my children!!!

      • Francis Solotier

        There are two problems with the list. 1. Does Fr. Geiger actually subscribe to all of them, some of them, or none of them? I don’t know and I would suspect no one but Fr. Geiger knows. Yet, a link is made between him and these particular ideas but with no proof. That is simply not fair and that is also very problematic as it leaves the reader to think that these are Fr. Geiger’s positions as well. Secondly, do any of these ideas, even the first one, constitute a mortal sin? Is it a sin to subscribe to an outlandish historical conclusion? The most problematic, in terms of faith and morals, might be the ‘gnostic ecclesiology’, but that also is difficult to prove. If he believes in the Creed and accepts everything in the Catechism (which I would observe clearly a majority of Catholics do not–especially in those ‘hard teaching’ areas), it would seem he is in very good standing.

        • Elizabeth

          Mr. Marshall has responded to me regarding whose “list” that was. He said that they are Fr. Geiger’s descriptors as they relate to this FI issue. Confused much?

        • Thanks for your polite response. I have two defenses to the list. 1. Dr. Marshall did not say that Father Geiger subscribes to all of them. And I think Dr. Marshall believes Father Geiger does not. Dr. Marshall says “Father Angelo Mary Geiger of the FIs in the United States has expressed his concern that the FIs are sipping from the radical traditionalist cool aid. In case you don’t know what “radical traditionalism” looks like, here’s a snap shot.” Then Dr. Marshall provides the list. So Dr. Marshall says Father Geiger says some in the FI are picking up an undesirable ideology. As far as I can see nobody says any particular FI leader has embraced the whole list and nobody says any particular FI leader has embraced this undesireable ideology. 2. Explaining what’s going on in the FI requires a distinction, a distinction American Catholics are particularly unlikely to pick up. The problem that some in the FI percieve is not that some priests in the FI have the same view of the Liturgy that existed before Vatican II as Pope Benedict. Viewing that belief as a problem would be a problem. Dr. Marshall had to explain to American readers that the alleged problem being dealt with was a different problem. As this comment thread demonstrates, regular American Catholics don’t have the factual background to distinguish between traditionalists who attend the EF and believe exactly what Pope Benedict believes, and those who subscribe to that list. (My comments would be much shorter if we had agreed-on nomenclature to distinguish these two groups.) Now you apparently think that it’s OK for people of a certain ideology to “take control of” or “influence” or “become leaders of” a religious order as long as the ideology does not consist of an approval of mortal sins. Dr. Marshall seems to be of the opposite opinion. But even if a person who disagreed with the decision were going to write about it, and the audience were regular Catholics, there would have to be some definition given of the ideology being opposed. If you read comment threads you know that there are people who are sure they are Rad Trads because they very enthusiastically agree with Pope Benedict’s views on the liturgy. To describe the dispute to American Catholics you have to describe what the ideology that is of concern consists of. Dr. Marshall provided his description. I’d very much like to hear yours, and to hear your proposed label for people who believe in it. But if an author were to write that this is being done to FI because too many of its priests agree with Pope Benedict on the liturgy, I believe that would be inaccurate.

          • Dr. Taylor Marshall

            Roger Conley,

            Ave Maria.

            Thank you for the carefully worded comment. You have a sharp mind.

            In hindsight, I would have placed a clear notice in the post that I am NOT hammering on those (like myself) who are attached to the EF Latin Mass. I suppose everything turns on the distinction between traditionalists and * radical* traditionalists.

            I think some of the more hostile comments here wrongly assumed that I was attacking all traditionalists. If you read the post, you can see that this is not the case.

            Again, I’d be condemning myself and my own family if I were doing so.

          • Thanks Dr. Marshall. As Mr. Solotier points out, belief in the items on the list do not make a person a Bad Person. I think g) would be a tough one to pull off and stay Catholic, but I certainly don’t deny that it could be done. It’s not good for a person to have an incorrect belief about important facts, but if the person comes to that belief without fault, just by being mistaken, there’s no sin involved. Similarly, it doesn’t seem that you couldn’t get along with people who agreed with some of the items on the list. For example, I find d) very attractive, but I bet we could still get along.

        • Thanks for your polite response. I have two defenses to the list. 1. Dr. Marshall did not say that Father Geiger subscribes to all of them. And I think Dr. Marshall believes Father Geiger does not. Dr. Marshall says “Father Angelo Mary Geiger of the FIs in the United States has expressed his concern that the FIs are sipping from the radical traditionalist cool aid. In case you don’t know what “radical traditionalism” looks like, here’s a snap shot.” Then Dr. Marshall provides the list. So Dr. Marshall says Father Geiger says some in the FI are picking up an undesirable ideology. As far as I can see nobody says any particular FI leader has embraced the whole list and nobody says any particular FI leader has embraced this undesireable ideology. 2. Explaining what’s going on in the FI requires a distinction, a distinction American Catholics are particularly unlikely to pick up. The problem that some in the FI percieve is not that some priests in the FI have the same view of the Liturgy that existed before Vatican II as Pope Benedict. Viewing that belief as a problem would be a problem. Dr. Marshall had to explain to American readers that the alleged problem being dealt with was a different problem. As this comment thread demonstrates, regular American Catholics don’t have the factual background to distinguish between traditionalists who attend the EF and believe exactly what Pope Benedict believes, and those who subscribe to that list. (My comments would be much shorter if we had agreed-on nomenclature to distinguish these two groups.) Now you apparently think that it’s OK for people of a certain ideology to “take control of” or “influence” or “become leaders of” a religious order as long as the ideology does not consist of an approval of mortal sins. Dr. Marshall seems to be of the opposite opinion. But even if a person who disagreed with the decision were going to write about it, and the audience were regular Catholics, there would have to be some definition given of the ideology being opposed. If you read comment threads you know that there are people who are sure they are Rad Trads because they very enthusiastically agree with Pope Benedict’s views on the liturgy. To describe the dispute to American Catholics you have to describe what the ideology that is of concern consists of. Dr. Marshall provided his description. I’d very much like to hear yours, and to hear your proposed label for people who believe in it. But if an author were to write that this is being done to FI because too many of its priests agree with Pope Benedict on the liturgy, I believe that would be inaccurate.

    • Sampson

      This is typical of the radical traditionalists, when you call their bluff. They will always retreat and insist that they are always in line with church teaching, obedient to the Pope, etc.etc.
      Then soon as they are out of the spotlight, they go right back to preaching and teaching heresy.

  • Philip

    “For fostering a true consciousness in liturgical matters, it is also important that the proscription against the form of liturgy in valid use up to 1970 should be lifted. Anyone who nowadays advocates the continuing existence of this liturgy or takes part in it is treated like a leper; all tolerance ends here. There has never been anything like this in history; in doing this we are despising and proscribing the Church’s whole past. How can one trust her at present if things are that way?” Spirit of the Liturgy – Ratzinger , 2000

  • Philip

    “I am of the opinion, to be sure, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It’s impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it suddenly declares that what until now was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent.” Salt of the Earth – Ratzinger, 1997

  • Jennifer

    Thank you so much for this! All the impassioned responses are just so left field. I really appreciate the descriptions of the radical traditionalism. I have been using the same term “gnosticism” and I’m glad to be affirmed!

    • Alfredo

      You can appreciate them all you want, but they’re wrong.

  • Yes, God forbid that the EF be abolished! I love it dearly.

    My point is this. If a person had zero exposure to the Latin Mass and only observed the anger and pontifical disrespect in the blog comboxes, one might conclude that the EF Catholics were bitter and cold.

    On the contrary, the most warm and loving Catholics I know attend the EF.

    By way of clarification – the “radical traditionalism snap shot” is from the point of view of the FI debate, it is not my attack on good Catholic men and women who are attached to the traditional liturgy. Otherwise, I’d be condemning myself as a holocaust denier and/or a gnostic.

    Man, after reading some of those comments, I myself had to go have a beer and pray the Rosary.

    Till next time, “Keep Calm and Scapular On.” (t shirt coming soon – seriously)

    • Elizabeth

      Do you mean that the “radical traditionalism snap shot” you posted are the views of the unhappy members of the FI? That wasn’t apparent by your post. In fact, at first reading, I thought that you were saying that those descriptors were Fr. Angelo’s opinions. Then after reading all the comments here, I thought that they were your descriptors. Call me confused. So these are representative of the FI and not you or Fr. Angelo?

      • Its a snap shot from the point of view if Fr Angelo and those concerned about where a minority in the FI could be going.
        It’s not my condemnation of the Latin Mass, which I love.

        • Elizabeth

          Okay, so these ARE Fr. Angelo’s descriptors of radical traditionalists. I could have sworn you said in one of your Comments that these AREN’T Fr. Angelo’s views.

          By the way, I think we all understand that you’re not condemning the Latin Mass itself; it’s obvious that you assist at that Mass.

          Is it just me or is this article causing all of us to go around and around in circles on just what you’re saying and who’s on first?

  • bdlaacmm

    I wish people would stop making such a Big Deal about this. I don’t attend a Latin Mass, partly because I know of none being celebrated in my vicinity, but mostly because I firmly believe that a Mass is a Mass and the language doesn’t matter that much. I would love the option of attending one every now and then (I’m old enough to remember how beautiful it was in my childhood.), but I’m not heartbroken over not being able to.
    In my private prayer at home, I mostly choose to pray in Latin, but there’s no one around to hear (or to criticize my undoubtedly bad pronunciation).

    • Elizabeth

      The language the Mass is spoken in has nothing to do with anything. The Novus Ordo Mass and the traditional Mass are two separate and different entities, different prayers, different readings, different theology.

  • Eduardo

    Paul VI, Address, May 24, 1976: “And the fact is all the more serious in that the opposition of which we are speaking is not only encouraged by some priests, but is lead by a prelate, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who nevertheless still has our respect
    “ It is so painful to take note of this: but how can we not see in such an attitude – whatever may be these people’s intentions – the placing of themselves outside obedience and communion with the Successor of Peter and therefore outside the Church? For this, unfortunately, is the logical consequence, when, that is, it is held as preferable to disobey with the pretext of preserving one’s faith intact, and of working in one’s way for the preservation of the Catholic Church, while at the same time refusing to give her effective obedience. And this is said openly. It is even affirmed that the Second Vatican Council is not binding: that the faith would also be in danger because of the reforms and post-conciliar directives, that one has the duty to disobey in order to preserve certain traditions. What traditions? It is for this group, not the Pope, not the College of Bishops, not the Ecumenical Council, to decide which among the innumerable traditions must be considered as the norm of faith! As you see, Venerable Brothers, such an attitude sets itself up as a judge of that divine will which placed Peter and his lawful successors at the head of the Church to confirm the brethren in the faith, and to feed the universal flock, and which established him as the guarantor and custodian of the deposit of faith…
    “The adoption of the new Ordo Missae is certainly not left to the free choice of priests or faithful. The instruction of 14 June 1971 has provided for, with authorization of the Ordinary, the celebration of the Mass in the old form only by aged and infirm priests, who offer the divine Sacrifice sine populo [without people]. The new Ordo was promulgated to take the place of the old, after mature deliberation, following upon the requests of the Second Vatican Council. In no different way did our holy predecessor Pius V make obligatory the Missal reformed under his authority, following the Council of Trent…
    “We have called the attention of Archbishop Lefebvre to the seriousness of his behavior, the irregularity of his principal present initiatives, the inconsistency and often falsity of the doctrinal positions on which he bases this behavior and these initiatives, and the damage that accrues to the entire Church because of them.” (L’Osservatore Romano, June 3, 1976, p. 2.)

  • Eduardo

    Paul VI: “The adoption of the new Ordo Missae is certainly not left to the free choice of priests or faithful. The instruction of 14 June 1971 has provided for, with authorization of the Ordinary, the celebration of the Mass in the old form only by aged and infirm priests, who offer the divine Sacrifice sine popolo [without people]. The new Ordo was promulgated to take the place of the old, after mature deliberation, following upon the requests of the Second Vatican Council.” (L’Osservatore Romano, June 3, 1976, p. 2.)

  • joespook

    Jesuits were Pope John Paul II greatest enemies within the Church. Pope Francis is a Jesuit. I am concerned.

  • Desmond

    I’m essentially a traditional Catholic. Yet for decades [and even quite recently] I’ve had the fullness of my Catholicism questioned — most recently by a dear old friend who has quite obviously ‘drunk the RadTrad cookaid’. After venting on the necessity of the Extroardinary Form – he launched into an attack on Vatican Council II – and other favorite bogies of the ‘RadTrads’.
    My friend needs to come up for air from his Latinist hidey-hole.
    I aree with this analysis in the article, and frankly think the Church is using great patience and prudence in this regard. If this move doesn’t bring them to their senses – more drastic measures will be in order – and I can only hope that the Magisterium will take them should this action not bear the desired fruit.

  • RGD

    With all due respect to all of the comments…I cannot believe all of the petty, snide and insensitive comments and personal attacks I have read. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and everyone has the right to comment on them. But remember that he who is without sin cast the first stone.

  • Vern

    Taylor Marshall’s malice towards traditional Catholics is unChristian. What a shame he doesn’t see the log in his own eye.

  • Rosemary58

    Great explication on a subject about which a friend and I were “murmurring” this morning, wondering what the problem is.

    I agree with you, Taylor, about the uber-traditional Latins’ website. I checked it out a couple of times but I got a strange chill from it. Pope Benedict was very generous toward them but they don’t seem satisfied.

  • John O’Donnell

    I have not heard of this order before this story broke and I don’t have a dog in this fight. That said, I have a hard time seeing the work of the Holy Spirit anywhere in this.

  • Maurizio

    I am unfamiliar with what you describe as ‘radical traditionals’ as it sounds reminiscent of the fire and brimstone Puritan protestantism which was intensely focused on a strict interpretation of dogma, but largely lacking in mercy (but maybe these people exist in the US).
    Nowhere else in the world have I met such ‘radical traditionals’ no. Come to Rome, or the rest of Europe, or Asia or Africa or Oz and you will realize that all those who love the TLM can best be summed up by Hilaire Belloc when he joyfully proclaimed:

    “Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
    There’s always laughter and good red wine.
    At least I’ve always found it so.
    Benedicamus Domino!”

  • Dorian

    Dr. Marshall,

    I consider myself a traditionalist, but now you make me afraid of the very word ‘traditionalist’. It is now a dirty word. I also now am doubting if I want to associate with anyone who identifies themselves as such.

    You made a point to draw attention to the 9 points you think explains radical traditionalists, but I am worried that you muddled things up. I’m quite frankly confused. What is shocking is that the tone of this post in particular is different from your other posts. It seems you wrote with passionate hatred (or perhaps disgust) rather than using your philosophical rhetoric.

    Secondly, I know of people in the Church who are just worried about the style of Pope Francis, but they are not you can call radical traditionalist, because they are not even sympathetic to the traditional movement.

    If you sense a problem from where you are, it ought not to have denigrated into such a post as above. You ought to have given good advice not just pointed at one group–because the one group is not the problem. Even then, the group you consider such would not ascribe all those points as tenets of their beliefs. That is wrong of you to list them like that.

    I do not deny the holocaust, neither do I talk endlessly about it. I don’t do the same for slavery or racism. Things happened, let’s move on.

    I don’t deny that Vatican II was an official council. I just have a problem with the aftermath and the nouvelle theologié.

    Let us not pretend that two views do not exist and are not at war with each other, because they are. From Wikipedia’s entry on Nouvelle Thelogié:

    Theologians from this school of thought had a significant influence on the reforms brought about in the Catholic Church by the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965). In the aftermath of the Council, the movement became divided into two camps, splitting in effect into left and right wings, over the interpretation and implementation of the Council, with Rahner, Congar, Schillebeeckx, Küng, and Chenu founding the more progressive theological journal Concilium in 1965, and de Lubac, Balthasar, Ratzinger, and others founding the theological journalCommunio in 1972.

    This is what you and I must discuss here, Dr. Marshall. Language is everything, and we must fight to use the proper language so that not much is left to conjecture. The faithful have a right to clear language from the top, not to language that is torn apart and then put back together.

    I do not live on a farm, but what is wrong with living on a farm in the middle of nowhere? I can love the farm life in this day and age especially when it comes to safeguarding children, and protecting myself from the overreach of the government right?

    The Amish are the ones exempt from Obamcare–why aren’t we Catholics? I am not saying that every Catholic needs to be under a bushel, but leading a simple life filled with joy can be done so on a farm, in a distributist environment.

    I don’t care for Charismatic gifts and the Charismatic movement, as much as the Charismatic person will say the same about the Latin Mass.

    Bishop Williamson has as much to say as Rick Warren and the other self-help guy you quote so often on your blog (personally, I would never quote either). You take everything with a grain of salt. While I don’t share his holocaust views, I understand some points that he makes. These are the same points that Protestants espouse when they ask us about being Catholic. They ask us about gay priests, and abuses and other subjects we’d rather not speak about. They have concerns, we must answer truthfully and impartially.

    On disdain for popes JP II and Pope Francis, please be honest. When you see pope JP II wearing a net shirt and short shorts, laying on the grass with some people–including women, what do you think?

    When you see him kissing a Koran, what do you think?

    When you see him praying with all the shamans and pagan folk at Assisi, what do you think?

    When you see him watching scantily clad women perform in the vatican for him, what do you think?

    Do you distance yourself from positive comments about him, or do you just say, interiorly, he is holy so his exterior actions do not matter?

    When Pope Francis washes the feet of Muslims and including one woman, what do you think?

    When he puts a beach ball on the altar of sacrifice, what do you think?

    This is the only point I will consider valid of a concern. Pride is an issue with Traditional Catholics, but it is merely the unfortunate stepping stone for people who make the change from Grovus Ordo (your words) to the Latin Mass after years of pain. While we struggle to bring others along, we become judgmental and sometimes too harsh in our admonitions. That is a problem.

    The last point is too juvenile for me to consider, and so I will ignore it. I trust you will delete it. It is laughable.

    Lastly, I do appreciate the blog, Rorate Caeli. They are concise and always careful to just use quotes. I hope they don’t respond to this food fight which you have started on your own.

    • Elizabeth

      Amen. Amen. Nicely stated.

    • Elizabeth

      To further muddy the waters, Mr. Marshall has responded to one of my comments, stating that the list isn’t HIS views, those are Fr. Geirger’s (as relating to the current FI incident). Frankly, I don’t know what to think anymore. Maybe Mr. Taylor himself doesn’t quite know because it seemed to me that they were his views, then they were Fr. Geiger’s views, next they’ll be ……. Maybe a poorly constructed article ended up betraying some issues and inconsistencies on the part of Mr. Marshall as regards what ‘traditional Catholicism’ is, or should I say ‘radical traditional Catholicism’. Utterly confusing.

  • Aloma Marquis

    Latin is a language, a human invention which, with all temporal things, will come to an end. It is telling that in all of this confusion the eternal things, faith, hope, and love, are not mentioned. If we are fully participating in the Mass celebrated in any language, we are consciously uniting ourselves in real time with the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and hopefully, if properly disposed, sharing in his victory over the egoism and brokenness in ourselves and our groups. The Mass is the vehicle that allows for mutual, loving, and intimate relationship with God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If intimacy, friendship overflowing into praise, gratitude, and service is not happening, and it does not appear to be here, therein lies the problem, challenge, and invitation to life with God. It would be prudent to deal with the core of the problem and not the symptoms.

    • Elizabeth

      All that you say is true but we’re not discussing the Mass in Latin or not in Latin. The traditional Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass (even when properly said in Latin), are two different Masses, different prayers, a different focus throughout, different readings, a different calendar, and most importantly, a different theology (it seems to me). Some people call the traditional Mass (Extraordinary Form of the Mass) the “Latin Mass”, which leads to this confusion that the issue is whether or not we’re at a Mass that’s being said in Latin. Couldn’t be further from the truth!

  • It’s comments like this that bring us right back to the original concerns about rad trads!

    • Elizabeth

      I disagree. Allan Hayes’ comments are Allan Hayes’ comments, no one else’s. Unless you or Fr. Geiger would now want to add these sentiments to the “list” in your article, these are simply one man’s views, and have nothing to do with “radical” traditionalism. You’re just continuing to clump isolated far-right or extreme or unusual views into one big pot called “radical traditionalist”, not unlike in the political world and the Democrats and liberals/progressives and their painting of Tea Party sympathizers.

    • JLM

      Radical Traditionalism is a term originating from the Southern Poverty Law Center. Why are you furthering the use of their terminology? Why are you so concerned with the views of a few kooks that have nothing to do with the traditional Catholic cause? Furthermore, this has absolutely nothing to do with the injustice committed against the FFI. It is disappointing to see you attack the traditional cause in this way.

      And no, claiming that you’re not really attacking traditionalists, but only “radical” traditionalists doesn’t satisfy. You’ve used the tactic, employed by so many others, of seeking to tarnish the entire traditionalist cause by smearing it with the ideas of a minuscule group.

  • Janusius Sancto

    I encourage everyone to go to the FFI website (immacolata dot com) and read the notice posted for 8/3/2013 which sheds light in the current situation, puts some rumors in their place, as well as at least one FFI priest who spoke out of turn to the media.

    • Janusius Sancto

      Note this post and the other additional post I mention above can be found in the ‘FI Updates’ section of the website as you scroll down the page.

      • Janusius Sancto

        One piece from the notice:

        If, by speaking of a “majority”, the anonymous
        journalist refers to the datum cited in the article of Alessandro Speciale of
        30 Jul 2013, «Francis approves appointment of commissioner to oversee
        Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate», namely: “in a survey carried out during
        the apostolic visit, the vast majority of the order’s members had said they did
        not agree that the Old Latin Rite should be the exclusive form used for
        celebrations of the mass, ‘particularly in the pastoral care programmes of
        Italian parishes and in the missions.’” [we have slightly altered Vatican
        Insider’s translation], we consider it necessary to point out that this
        datum—if true—would not attest anything other than a unity of intention between
        the vast majority and our Founder on the question of exclusivity.

        In any case, if the “majority” of the friars [So
        far as we are aware, there has not been any survey involving all the members of
        the Institute. Therefore, survey-based affirmations as to the will of the
        majority of the friars appear to us to be completely baseless] prefers to
        celebrate according to the Novus Ordo (Holy Mass and Breviary), it could
        perfectly well continue to do so, as it has in the past. Furthermore, Fr.
        Manelli himself principally celebrates the Novus Ordo (Holy Mass and Breviary).


        While we remain obedient to the dispositions of the Holy
        See, it nevertheless remains our duty to make clarifications as necessary to
        avoid: 1) calumnies against our Founder, and 2) obstacles to the serene
        progress of the present period under a Commissioner.

        We take the occasion to specify that the only official
        spokesman of our Institute, especially in this very delicate situation, remains
        our Procurator General, Fr. Alessandro Apollonio.

        • Janusius Sancto,

          Ave Maria.

          Thank you for directing all of us to these important updates from the FIs themselves.

  • Janusius Sancto

    On the FFI website, you can also find an additional posting with additional clarification of other misinformation that has been put out there. It is titled “Un’ulteriore risposta a Vatican Insider” which translates to “A Further Response to Insider”. This post has not yet been officially translated to english but google translate had no problems providing a readable version.

    • Odrag

      To all supporters of the TLM. Please, stop associating it with any objections to the NO (in its correct form), Vatican II, CCC, pos-conciliar Magisterium. Otherwise, you are not traditionalists but neoprotestatnts.

      • Elizabeth

        Sigh. So, by that reasoning or lack thereof, St. Catherine of Sienna and St. Athanasius would have been “neo-protestants”. Heck, you could even include Pope Benedict as a “neo-protestant” then, since he had some rather pointed comments about the Novus Ordo Mass, and yes, he was referring to it in its correct form. If I gave it a little more time, I could come up with countless names but I don’t feel like taking the time.

  • MaryC

    Since when did belief in the so-called Holocaust become part of the deposit of the Catholic Faith? Not only that, but it seems that in Fr. Geiger’s view it is the worst fruit of “radical” Traditionalism since he lists it first.
    I question what we have all been force fed regarding that supposed historical event called the Holocaust, and it has nothing to do with my being a Traditional Catholic. If you study that subject in depth and with an open mind, you cannot help but come to the conclusion that the official story just doesn’t add up.

    • Jon Fermin

      No true member of the FI’s would condone holocaust denial. Aside from the overwhelming evidence that it did happen and that many people died from it, Consider that one of them was the martyr St. Maximillian Kolbe, whom from personal experience I know is held in the highest regard by the FI. Because of this it is very plain that Fr. Geiger would take such strong offense to holocaust denial.

  • Andrea

    From what I understand, what was objected to by some FI’s (notably Americans) was the COMPULSORY use of traditional Latin liturgy within the community. Wouldn’t a more prudent judgment have been to just remove the “YOU MUST” and substitute it with “YOU MAY” rather than throw out, so to speak, traditional Latin liturgy, even temporarily?

  • Christopher

    I think this entire post is disrespectful toward catholics. Just catholics. labeling people as potential holocaust deniers (what in the world does that have to do with being catholic??) is really playing into the worst anti-catholic propaganda. Dr. Marshall, you are better than this…you went off the deep end here.
    “amish catholics” ??? protestant catholics? protestant because someone likes goodness..

    Has catholic identity sunk so low to promote such stereotypes…

    Good grief, I know disco DJ’s who still prefer the latin mass, so whats it to you?

    • Chanankat

      Yes, even Thomas Merton favored traditional Latin liturgy AND the Officium Divinum as well in Latin, with Gregorian singing (how scandalous – was merton anti-semitic?).

      • larry

        A double amen!

    • larry

      There is an active amd vicious contingent in the Catholic church made up of clergy and laity.

  • Janusius Sancto

    There continue to be updates on this situation. Rorate Caeli has been posting them. Most recent was an interview by the official spokesman for the Order itself with A. Tornielli. A. Tornielli has since published another article on this matter and names the handful of FFI who were responsible for the intervention.

  • Jack

    I’ve only had brief encounters with the FI’s and they weren’t good ones. I was once in formation with the Conventual Franciscans and it was pretty apparent that the FI’s wanted nothing to do with them. The FI’s were using one of the Conv. retreat houses and wouldn’t spend any fraternal time with their Franciscan brothers. As much as I love the charism of the FI’s, their history of subversively breaking from the Conventual branch doesn’t look well (Kolbe never broke from the order).

    This current strife within the FI’s is sad but not surprising. Several “reform” communities lose leadership and start to go in different directions as they loose proper guidance or leadership.

  • Roderick Goggenheimer

    The Franciscans of the Immaculate are a renegade, schismatic sect that has needed reeling in for a long time. Pope Francis has done the right thing.

  • Roderick Goggenheimer

    This romanticizing about the latin Mass is absurd. I was an altar boy pre Vatican II. The Mass was a dialogue primarily between the Priest and the altar boys. Many of the folks in the pew prayed the rosary during Mass. There is no such thing as “liberal” Catholics or “traditional Catholics.” One is either Catholic or you are not. Yes, there have been abuses since Vat II and this is wrong and should be corrected. The latin Mass is a relic from the past. Those that quarrel with Pope Francis on this issue such as the Franciscans of the Immaculate are hypocrites of the first order. The FI are a schismatic, separtist sect that has needed disciplining for a long time. God Bless Pope Francis.

  • steve5656546346

    I don’t think that your 3.a) through 3.i) was helpful nor meaningful.

    Some criticized positions that truly are radical traditionalism (to use the term of the Southern Poverty Leadership Center…and the author): so radical as to be nearly nonexistent–and certainly not worthy of notice.

    Some misrepresented the issue: e.g., gnosticism. There is nothing secret about the Church’s teachings throughout the centuries.

    And then there is this “Amish Catholicism” which fell into all of the categories: and is just plain weird. So, what’s wrong with the Amish in a Church that praises Muslims and Jews (some of whom are Orthodox Jews)? What an utterly bizarre preoccupation! So, is the Kingdom to be found only by following the dictates of the fashion industry? And any dissent from fashion somehow makes one Amish? So what?

  • JLM

    No it was not 80%. Bruno has been contested in this claim. Furthermore, in a response to Vatican Insider, the FFI makes clear the following: “We take the occasion to specify that the only official spokesman of our Institute, especially in this very delicate situation, remains our Procurator General, Fr. Alessandro Apollonio”

  • Percy Gryce

    “if I were Pope Francis and read the comments at Rorate Caeli, I’d be tempted to shut it all down”

    If the post-conciliar liturgy were similarly judged by the use made of it by the most radical priests and nuns, then the Holy Father would have to anathematize all of the liturgical books published after 1965.

  • Jackson K. Eskew

    Many here seem to be under the mistaken impression that Rorate Caeli is composed of traditionalist bloggers. Truly traditionalist bloggers would never call themselves merely “tradition-minded,” as they do. Moreover, truly traditionalists bloggers would never defend the errors of Summorum Pontificum, as they do. Related, truly traditionalist bloggers would never adopt, as they do, Conciliar/Orwellian newspeak such as “Extraordinary Form.” Additionally, truly traditionalist bloggers would never suggest, as they do, that the Novus Ordo service, which is a consciously Protestantized and inherently irreverent fabrication (whether in Latin or not), might be done reverently. Much more could be mentioned.

  • Sampson

    You are lumped in, stop trying to have it both ways. And, please stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.

  • p

    Looks pretty sede vacante

  • Dr. Dom Pedulla

    One very important additional characteristic not included here is the (often implicit) denial of the legitimacy of NFP to avoid pregnancy, by way of requiring the most stringent of motives for child spacing, or by saying NFP users are using “catholic contraception”.

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  • somnipod

    Just a quick question, and this may be really stupid. I also (almost exclusively) go to Extraordinary Form also. So I guess that makes me a “Trad”…. (I always just thought of myself as a Catholic that (thankfully) was introduced to the EF – I was beginning to lose it in the Novus Ordo in my town (not getting fed spiritually) But the NO is obviously still a valid mass.

    If I’m a “Trad” – Whats the name of the Catholics that refuse the EF – A “Nontraditional” Catholic?

    I find these names strange, dividing, and possibly dangerous to the unity of the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church

  • anonymous Catholic

    Looks like Latin Mass Trads will have no other choice; Free Masonry, sacrilegious have infected the truest form of worship. I don’t think taking up beer is an answer..

  • Harold Norwood

    An excellenct article Taylor. I agree with most or if not all of what you say. As for the Rorate Caeli blogg. I think it is about to ‘close up shop’ they do not accept any more comments but still prublish ridiculous criticisms of the Holy Father and all things seen as Vatican II ! This blogg in reality is more or less surportative of the schismatic sspx. Indeed, unfortunately, Pope Francis was correct in restricting the celebration of the extraordainry rite and I hope that it will be restricted further. It is used as an agenda for those who do not accept Vatican II , and more times than not deny the validily of the new Rite of Mass of Pope Paul VI and the Sacraments ! They see themselves as the ‘A’ Team, or the True Catholic elite while all the others ‘conciliar catholics’ whatever that means aren’t really catholic at all but belong to the ‘new church’!

    • Absolutely silly.

      • Harold Norwood

        ‘codephined’ – if it’s ‘absolutely silly’ why don’t you have the courage of your convictions and use your real name, why ‘hide’ behind a ‘silly,’ ‘nom de plume’!

  • Cathy

    Hi taylor, I am new to this blog, great stuff!
    your point summery of describing rad trads is spot on, I grew up in a Latin Mass parish which included closet SSPX and Sedevecantists, and was often confused at the lack of charity and inhouse fighting of those who pride themselves on being ” true Catholics”, I often wondered what these people would do if they suddenly found themselves in a war torn country where the Church was ransacked and all the priest would have to say Mass upon was a makeshift table with no candles flowers lace garments or Alter cloths. Rad Trads often cry discrimination and persecution, they do not know the meaning of these terms, Catholics around the world in less fortunate countries are lucky to see a priest from one month to the next they are so persecued by tyrant government. I attend both Novis Ordo and Extrodinary Form, and love them both. I also find Rad Trads follow conspiricy theories alot, they are often agitated and unsettled people who are constantly trying to justify why they hold their confused position. They point the finger at Pope John Paul II and highlight the mistakes he made, does this mean St Peter is condemned also because he denied Christ three times? I believe Pope Francis has a very strong and neccessary message for the Church today, to remove ourselves from our comfort zones, to excersise Charity in true Christian form, to be grateful to God and thank Him for what we have been given, Pray for the Pope Bishops and Priests they are often under attack, and be obedient. Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words – St. francis of Assisi

    • Cathy

      Apologies for the lack of grammar and punctuation, and spelling your name without a capital letter 🙁
      It is an art to juggle a toddler and type at the same time………

  • Diane Alden

    Timothy .. Chapt. II .. IV…. a progressive pope is a progressive pope.. nothing that has come out of f?Francis mouth suggests he is anything but a progressive. Everyone acts like the hierarchy has been at the forefront of conservative traditional teaching . what a JOKE that is. For 40 years .. 90 percent of the time we get a lets all get along . there is sin but not to worry . God loves you so .. whatever.. if Pope Francis is trying to get more people into the church or look favorably on it .. he has got it wrong… since Vatican II the church has bled out in vocations and devotion .. guitar masses were a torture… putting the crucifix off in left field… sticking the blessed sacrament in some side chapel.. gay masses from cardinal mahony .. dance mass .. really really BAD liturgical garbage .. etc etc etc. Bishops were not at the forefront of conservativism on abortion or gays .. they were SILENT for the most part and left a FEW good souls in the priesthood or laity to carry the water. As far as I can tell the current pope or his mindset are described in prophecies in the bible and by various apparitions form Fatima to Good Success to Malachi Martin .. I am hanging in there but this pope has become suspect .. is he the false prophet .. our Lady of Good Success mentions those who promote a false charity … I wonder if Francis has asked whether hsi version of charity is not simply secular humanism in a cassock.Francis has sown confusion .. and what is it Christ said . by your fruits you shall know them. The people of the church who practice their faith are ill served ., I pray that Our Lady and Sacred Heart of Jesus can guide us . cause I think the current crop of shepherds are pushing us over the cliff. Francis is the result of 60s counter culture … social gospel takes precedence over the realization of sin and that it exists. God help us because I think the shepherd is asleep at the switch and many will be led astray because they will think its okay to love the sinner AND THE SIN.

  • Fr M Rehak

    The founding superior of the FSSP, Fr J Bisig, was removed by an almost identical tactic years ago by a group of dissident FSSP priests.
    Eventually these “concerned members” of the institute, having gained everything they wanted, have all thankfully left the FSSP.
    Patience and prayer will eventually purify the FFI of its internal discord.

  • Unknown

    wow, you’re pretty antagonistic and relentless in perpetuating the anti_catholic propaganda that has gripped the church.

    I think you really need to take a look at yourself and what you are doing with your life. Waging ‘holocaust denial’ and the ridiculous term of ‘denying the charismatic movement’ are not valid criticsims and are pretty inflammatory.

    It’s people like you that are pushinh honest catholics away from the church.

  • E. F. Lewis

    I almost said to myself “here we go, again”. In discussing the FI situation in Italy, it was necessary to bring in Msgr. Brunero Gherardini. Gherardini lays out four distinct categories from which to describe Vatican II. He chooses to focus almost exclusively on “innovation” almost to the exclusion of whether (or not) Vatican II was an ecumenical council.
    He, and unfortunately, many other supporters of the EF refuse to recognize that the 20th century was a century of neo-Thomism; which is not Thomism. This Council was determined to return to its sources with a strong focus on Augustine and Thomistic philosophy. The ressourcement theologians of the mid-century were not anti Thomas. Keep in mind that these theologians were not simply French-based. Guardini, Adam, formed the German speaking part of this “drive” to recover the past. It is quite well known that Guardini and Adam were very influential with a young theologian, Joseph Ratzinger.

    What I am attempting to get at here is that it is not and either/or proposition. it has become very tiresome listening to the EF folk and their superior way of celebrating Mass, preaching; the whole nine yards. My impression of the EF folk is that they want to recall a world that never existed. How many are old enough to recall how it was in the “old days” of poor Latin, and almost total lack of understanding what was happening at the altar. We must remember that Nicaea was very innovative. Trent for all its teaching on the sacraments was a pastoral council. It sought to teach the priests how to hear confession, and how to celebrate the Mass, among other things. Trent innovated!!

    E.F. Lewis

    • Kenneth

      Trent and Nicea also made infallible dogmatic definitions. Vatican 2 did not. Trent and Nicea were called in RESPONSE to a Church crisis… The innovations at V2 CAUSED a Church crisis. We reformed nearly every aspect of Church life and every single thing we touched crumbled. Post hoc? I doubt it. There is nothing new in Vatican 2 that we have to believe or do. All the old truth expressed in the documents are BETTER explained by previous councils that didn’t make use of “compromise formulas”. Why not just pretend the council.never happened? What’s so wonderful about the new pastoral programs that we just can’t let them go? The Church today is like a man who got ran over and crushed by an 18 wheeler and can’t seem to remember what happened. Sad.

      • George

        Vatican II, for such a Pastoral Council, sure has had more effect than any other Council. The affect has been so much that our Religion is not the same as it was 50 years ago. I don’t understand why a great percentage of Traditionalists say it was only Pastoral when in fact Vatican II fundamentally changed the way Modern Catholics pray and believe.

    • George

      EF Lewis,

      It may be true that those without Missals may not have
      followed every word that the priest was saying but Missals were widely
      available and many people did use them.
      You underestimate Catholics of the early 20th Century by insinuating
      they did not know what was going on up on the Altar. There was perhaps more
      understanding of the sacrificial nature of the Mass then than there is

      Additionally, our Latin Mass was not translated into English
      word for word so the emphasis of the Mass changed from one of Sacrifice to one
      of Celebration of the Last Supper (Lutheran Heresy). Unfortunately, the Cannon was changed. They did not have to do this but they

      Purposely, the Council Fathers changed the Mass at the same
      time as they translated it. Naturally,
      Catholics untrained in Latin and theology, were unaware of the shift in
      emphasis and followed their priests by obedience into the uncharted world of
      modernism and false ecumenism. The vast
      majority of Catholics are unaware that the Mass said today is not a translation
      but a new creation. Of course most Catholics, after 50 years, don’t really care.

  • kenneth

    I think that it is fascinating the Church today befriends atheists Muslims heretics if every stripe and lets Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden run unchecked…. But those traditionalists!!! Now THEY really need to be watched closely. Give me a break.

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  • Excellent! Thankyou for this.

  • julienorvan

    I really can’t believe you have summed up the points of what you think the Traditionalist movement is all about, Dr. Marshall, in such a glib and simplistic manner!! This shocks me, as in each of these points, such as holocaust denial, there are many interesting points to consider, such as the numbers, not the actual event, and the conditions or reasons for the occurance of the holocaust. I don;t think this is an accurate depiction, but the Characterization that is desired by an anti-traditional Church heirarchy which is what we have today! How can you pose as a traditional Catholic and then be complicit in attacking traditionalists at the same time? If I wear a longer than usual skirt rather than the above the knee usual length, does that make me an ” Amish Catholic”? This is not only unfair but a low blow to fellow Catholics who believe they have a right and obligation to live by a higher standard of morality and manners than the larger society, which seems to prefer women dressing like prostitutes and show as much skin and flesh as possible! How can you go along with the miligning of Traditional Catholics in this way??

    • I said radical traditionalist.

      • julienorvan

        well such a label bears an insult within it in my view! I suppose you have determined the various gradations of how “radical” Catholics are in their traditionalism then? So how many inches below the knee can a woman wear her skirts before being called an Amish Catholic and a radical traditionalist? How many times can someone criticize the hierarchy for obvious faults such as teaching errors etc.. before being called a radical traditionalist? At the time I wrote the above response I was attending an EF mass at an indult parish. But now I am at an SSPX parish, so I am sure you would consider me to be very “radical” and this implies unacceptable as well in my traditional Catholicism! That is fine with me as I don’t care how you judge me, but I do care how Our Lord judges me. I consider you to be a very luke warm, wishy-washy traditionalist, indeed not a true traditionalist at all, and a very judgemental one of fellow Catholics, as well.

  • jpaYMCA

    I realize that this is a late comment, but I offer this as one who have known the FFIs for 10+ years, live in Italy, am American, and have been in several traditional (PCED) seminaries: I know many FFIs and NONE has shown any of the “radtrad” marks which you described, Dr. Marshall, either in Italy or in America. I humbly suggest that they “traditionalist attitude” is modeled mainly on Card. Ratzinger’s/Pope Benedict’s comments on the importance of liturgy…whence the founder – and independently, the friar priests for the most part – discovered the same truth. This has been my experience with them, and I can safely and surely say that Card. Burke has had a very similar experience with them. And Card. Burke will not tolerate the ideas or attitudes you listed above!

    Now, your comment about traditionalists as people is dissappointing. Yes, people act according to their ideas and ideals – for the most part – but to think that even substantial FRACTION of traddies are frequent commentors on a few crazy blogs is contrary to everyone’s contestation of the life of most traditional families: the dad works too hard to have time to follow such junk, the mom works too hard – in home or outside, often homeschooling along with some “portable” work – to even access the internet for more than an answer to the questions arising from Calculus or Biochemistry, and the young men and women are usually at Mass (hoping to meet a future spouse at the altar rail), or in a seminary or convent. Perhaps things are quite singular in your neck of the Texan woods, but I submit that such would be the exception rather than the rule.

    What sayest thou?

    God bless you and yours!

  • David

    Did the prayer, without the malt. Your conclusion and recommendations are right on the spot: pray more, complain less.

  • Paul Gerard

    As always a thoughtful and assessment Dr Taylor – however following the years of persecution from Paul VI and the new Novus Ordo establishment under Cardinals Villot, Suenens, Hume, Danneels, Lustiger, Konig and Co, it is understandable that orthodox Catholics are greatly concerned by this pope’s actions.It is a chilling reminder of the bad days of the 1970’s.

    Devout Catholics who lived through Paul VI’s vandalism, who saw their liturgy destroyed, their faith gutted and their churches desecrated, are naturally wary to any action from Rome directed against the Mass of the Ages.

    While atrocious profanity continues in many Novus Ordo churches, why is this pope singling out the F.I’s ? there are much more urgent and larger liturgical problems in many Novus Ordo parishes and Cathedrals. Yet this pope slams down on a small group who prefer the Latin Mass.

    As scripture says: “You’ll be able to judge them by their fruits!

  • Paul Gerard

    As always a thoughtful and assessment Dr Taylor – however following the years of persecution from Paul VI and the new Novus Ordo establishment under Cardinals Villot, Suenens, Hume, Danneels, Lustiger, Konig and Co, it is understandable that orthodox Catholics are greatly concerned by this pope’s actions. It is a chilling reminder of the bad days of the 1970’s.
    Devout Catholics who lived through Paul VI’s vandalism, who saw their liturgy destroyed, their faith gutted and their churches desecrated, are naturally wary to any action from Rome directed against the Mass of the Ages.
    While atrocious profanity continues in many Novus Ordo churches, why is this pope singling out the F.I’s – there are much more urgent and larger liturgical problems in many Novus Ordo parishes and Cathedrals, yet Francis slams down on a small group who prefer the Latin Mass.
    Scripture: “You’ll be able to judge them by their fruits!

  • Christopher Marlowe

    The so-called “Jewish holocaust” is not part of the Catholic faith, so a Catholic may choose not to believe it. I used to believe in it because many so-called “survivors” came to my school in Junior High and High School and told us about the many sufferings. And we also read “the Diary of Anne Frank” and I saw many movies that depicted many atrocities perpetrated against the Jews.

    But after I actually READ A BOOK about the so-called “holocaust”, I came to understand that there was never any extermination of Jews, and that most of the deaths in the work camps were due to typhus. It is very unpopular to say this because most people are so thoroughly propagandized by Hollywood movies, and I used to believe that people who “denied” the “holocaust” were just “anti-semites”. This is a not a reasonable view, but rather one encouraged by our propagandized society.

    The author of the 3 volume “Destruction of European Jewry”, Raul Hilberg, the Jewish authority on the so-called “holocaust” admitted that there was never a written order to exterminate the Jews. Think about it: the Germans, who are so famous for following orders, never had an order to kill Jews. That one fact alone should be enough to make any reasonable person question the story. But there is so much more.

    Did you know that newspaper articles and books, dating from 1900 to 1945, in which Jews have claimed that specifically six million (6,000,000) Jews, were in peril, would be killed, or had been killed a total of 236 TIMES! Jews were claiming that 6 million were killed 236 times before the so-called “holocaust” could possibly have been perpetrated or accounted for!

    The six million number is from the Jewish mysticism, and is based on a percieved misspelling of a word in the Bible in Leviticus 25:10 “You shall return” grammatically requires another “vav”, which is a 6, which is a 6 in Hebrew.

    The intellectually honest person will read this and doubt the official “holocaust” narrative. The cowardly and propagandized will feel justified for being afraid of what I just wrote, and hating me for it. But I consider it the height of foolishness for someone to disdain a traditional Catholic because that Catholic does not profess a belief in the ridiculous “holocaust” myth.

  • ubiPetrusEst

    Puhleeze! This post makes one think the author had one too many beers in the backyard before sitting down to write.

  • Philip Sieve

    I’d be concerned about the accepted schismatics, like the Medjugorje and related apparition hunters their respective bishops try to restrain and those clergy that hire radical leftists for commencement speeches at their universities. Nothing is done about these influential types. They are legion, anymore. Traditionalists are relatively few, non-influential and any easy target. I think the neo-cons need to get the mainstrean unpolluted, before picking on one little group that has no pull in the system or out of it. Maybe they should. They are the only ones who’d be serious and unfrightened about protecting the flock whatever fallout there may be.

  • Drake

    Sedevacantism or some variant is the honest response to Vatican 2. This action against the Franciscans of the Immaculate is an obvious attempt to snub the little tradition that is preserved to lure people into the false Vatican 2 sect.

  • jimmy

    “We can’t be more Catholic than the Catholic church.” I’m a traditionalist (or orthodox) Catholic who has faith the Holy Spirit is still at work in the Church. Not a fan of Vatican II because it seemed so easily perverted by those who would change the Church. But Jesus will never abandon his Bride so we must put our pride in our pockets and have faith He is still leading the Church.

  • Chanankat

    So dr marshall, where do you get off slamming Rorate Caeli? You ‘d like to see them shut down. They are often the first link listed on the sides of the best catholic blogs on the web, the holiest servants of God and priests, and the least “lavender.” Dissing Rorate Caeli (without any evidence btw) tells me way more about Taylor Marshall than it does Rorate Caeli!

  • Paolo

    Taylor, what you call “Traditional Catholicism” is The Catholicism of All Times, the Catholicism I was raised in, the One and Only Catholicism I knew: I always saw my mother and grandmothers wear a veil in Church, never saw clowns, puppets, dancers, women in shorts, gays holding hands in Church.
    Traditional Catholicism is Monsignor Lefebvre, the only Bishop who had the courage to oppose changes to the teachings our Church received directly from our Lord Jesus Christ: “tradidi quod et accepi” is written on his tomb, “I have passed on what I received”. The Tridentine Mass is not, as you say, something to be loved, it is a necessity for the salvation of our lost souls.

    • Disobedience to canon law and the vicar of Christ is not righteous. Padre Pio silently suffered ecclesial censures…and he’s a great saint.

  • Douglas Pearson

    Pray more. Complain less… amen.

  • Father Fred

    I’m no radtrad. I find lots of good stuff in Vatican II, whether the Council is valid or invalid. But somebody quick find a fallacy in the this syllogism:
    Major Premise
    “The First See is judged by no one.” Canon 1556 in 1917, now canon 1404.
    Minor Premise
    But the First See, understood as The Pope, is judged by Jesus Christ.
    Therefore Jesus Christ is no one.
    If there is no fallacy in this syllogism then any pope who quietly dismisses it is a foolish atheist “in his heart” (Psalm 14:1) and before the Creator of sound reason is incompetent for office.
    Or if Francis, aware of this reasoning, affirms 1404 as it stands, he is an apostate, and the maxim applies: “He who falls from the faith of Peter falls from the See of Peter.”
    Who is going to believe that such a difficulty escaped notice among the hundreds of consultants who put these versions of the Code of Canon Law together? I find it much easier to believe that qualifications of this canon were proposed and rejected. By whom, please?
    When will Pope Francis revise canon 1404 to read “The First See is canonically judged by no one” or “is judged by no one under Jesus Christ”?
    Until some such correction is promulgated I fear Jesus Christ, the Word Incarnate who considers himself someone, will judge Francis “out of his own mouth” and with him all who dismiss this syllogism as a quibble.
    If all of this is off point, Taylor, please relocate it suitably. Thanks.

  • Ken Vee

    Very good. Very Measured. Time and the Holy Spirit will decide the whole thing. It is a pity, though, that this molotov cocktail had to be tossed into the middle of the institute. These Franciscans had a good thing going. The smoke of Satan drifts everywhere in the Church, but nowhere more thickly than where he feels the supreme need to corrupt. May a genuine love of Jesus and Mary ultimately be the FI’s salvation.

  • Laramie Stewart

    Marshall is clearly an agent provacateur.

  • jacobum

    2 years have passed. Would like to have an update on TM’s perspective.

  • TBTG

    In other words if you love the Latin Mass keep your mouth shut. Stay blind to all the errors that are occurring in the Church and by the way don’t stick labels on people, especially don’t label them as “Latin Mass PEOPLE” because we’re all Catholic don’t you know?

  • Fabian

    Holy father is wise and the Franciscans of the Immaculate are humble and obedient . The obedience comes first and they will receive more graces.

  • larry

    Amazes me that out of all the orders around the world Pope Frankie zeroed in on the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. I attend a TLM Mass every Sunday. If he starts with more restrictions I may leave the church with those who oppose his liberal crackdowns. Wisdom says “Avoid the discussion and hit them in the pocketbook”. Leave the Catholic Church to the liberals and it will go even more bankrupt.

  • julienorvan

    Someone mentioned that the TLM was allowed but that permission must be granted by the bishop of the diocese. This is common practice but is not in fact enshrined in canon law. The laws of the church have never been changed regarding the use of the Latin Mass, which was assumed to be and promulgated as the one and only mass of the RCC> this is the Quo Primum of St. Pius V, that the mass in latin should NEVER be denied any priest who does it validly and legitimately, in perpetuity!!

  • julienorvan

    here is the quote: